Which type of valve...tissue or mechanical for 56 yr old female

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Rosebud54

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Messages
77
Location
Sterling, VA
Hi,

I have bicuspid aortic valve and a 4.9 centimeter aortic aneurysm. I was told last week that I need open heart surgery. This is because the aneurysm has grown in the last year. We thought I'd be in my 70's before a surgery was needed. So, here I am. My sister is a heart nurse, she recommends the tissue because of blood thinning meds. Can anyone tell me their experience. Thank you.
 
Rose, it's a very personal decision. With a tissue valve, depending upon your age, you may/will need it replaced in 10 to 20 years. Multiple surgeries are not fun. Been there, done that.

With mechanical, yes, there's anticoagulation required. It's not rocket science but can be mismanaged. Read the stickies on the anticoagulation forum.

I've chosen mechanical, twice (2 separate valves, 2 separate surgeries). I manage my own anticoagulation, with the blessing of my cardio. His wonderfully trained nurses are always available to me for consult, as are the people on this forum. Coumadin is not to be feared. There's a lot of bad managers out there, and a lot of old wives' tales, too.
 
Welcome to VR. You can spend many hours searching and reading the many threads on this topic. It truly is a personal choice and the only wrong choice is doing nothing at all. No doubt at your age you will probably be looking at a second surgery if you choose tissue. I was a few weeks shy of my 54th birthday when I had my surgery and I did choose tissue. It's what I wanted and what my surgeon recommended. My younger brother was 37 when he had his valve and aorta repaired. He choice was the St. Jude mechanical.

You have found a great support group here. Fire away with your questions and someone will respond. Good luck with your decision.
 
Welcome to the site Rosebud. Maybe you can also ask your surgeon what he/she would choose if they were you, based on your unique circumstances? Best wishes :)
 
Welcome, Rosebud.

I was only little older than you when I had my second OHS which was valve replacement. I opted for tissue valve (bovine) and for me it was the absolutely right decision. I am coming up to three years since.

I did not want to cope with coumadin on everyday basis but especially with some ill educated medical professionals who have no clue how to handle it when patients on ACT require procedures which may involve bleeding, including dentists. Some of the stories I have read here of the trouble patients got into because of ill informed professionals forcing their regimine upon patients when they needed tests and procedures.

I also did not want to risk a loud ticking valve. When I learned body shape and size is no indication of how loud or soft a mechanical valve may sound in advance of implantation, I did not want to take the risk. I hate the sound of a ticking clock.

In addition, there have been huge advancements in percutaneous valve replacement and they are being done more and more in people other than those original patients who were too ill to undergo traditional OHS. My excellent Mass General Surgeon as well as many from leading heart centers around the world are expressing lots of confidence by the time those of us getting tissue valves right about now might need another, they will not have to crack our chest for a redo. Advancements in heart care are coming at a rapid rate these days.

Best wishes and know for sure there is no wrong choice of which valve to pick. Do your research, ask your questions, listen to your doctors and make your choice knowing both mechanical and tissue are excellent choices. Once you pick the one you want for you, don't look back. The only bad choice is to not go forward with the surgery.
 
Choices?

Choices?

Others have made a couple of great points... the only bad choice is to not have your failing valve and growing aneuryism fixed... valve choice is personal and there are lots of variables to consider in your decision.

Perspectives regarding anticoagulation vary dramatically among members. I don't have a clue as to why your sister, the nurse, advised you to choose tissue over mechanical because of anticoagulation therapy concerns. Does she have personal experience with this kind of therapy? Has she worked with patients who've experienced major difficulties? Is her recommendation based upon the typical misconceptions and lack of knowledge that are common within the medical community?

Experiences with valve decisions differ among members. We can really only offer advice based upon our personal experiences, and perspectives. This said, I've not experienced any negative issues related to my choice of my St. Jude mechanical. It doesn't make excessive noise and anticoagulation therapy hasn't presented any major problems at all. I maintain an active lifestyle, eat what I want, take a couple of pills every night, and test my blood at home weekly. I have friends who take more pills (vitamins and over-the-counter pain medications) daily than I do.

All things considered, you get the task of sifting through all this and making the choice that you believe will serve you the best. Good luck with that. There are lots of great options (both tissue and mechanical) out there.

-Philip
 
Rosebud, None of us can or should tell you what type of valve to choose, nor should you choose your valve based on one of our experiences. We all choose our valves for our own personal reasons. If you read on here long enough, you will come to realize that this is a topic that creates a lot of passion and debate.

At your age, you are probably looking at another surgery in your lifetime, which would have the same risk as the one you are looking at now (1-2%). So, in a nutshell, would you rather have a tissue valve, and basically not have to worry about anything until it's time to have to take care of the replacement of that valve again, or get a mechanical valve, and take coumadin everyday, but not have to worry about having to have surgery again.

You have a great resource in your sister, someone you know and trust, who has great first hand experience in dealing with cardiac patients. That is who I would personally use as a sounding board if I were in your shoes.

If you have any other questions, you have come to a great place to get them answered. There aren't many things that someone on here hasn't experienced. Good luck to you.

Kim
 
Rosebud54, I think you've got the basic info to make your choice. The stats on overall life expectancy, or (what the statisticians call "freedom from") nasty events resulting from either choice, are about an even "saw-off" at 56 years old, according to my reading of the studies. There's no perfect choice, but both choices are better than keeping what you've got until it fails!

Down one path is a valve that should last forever, but might well be audible and definitely needs Coumadin/Warfarin forever. That combo of mech valve and Coumadin/Warfarin (aka ACT or INR) carries extra risks along with the nuisance, even if you find it easy to keep your INR stable in the "goldilocks" or "just right" range where it's supposed to be. That range is a compromise between controlling two new risks -- the risk that your new mech valve will "throw a clot" that will go to your brain and cause a stroke (higher INR generally lowers that risk) AND the risk that you will suffer some kind of "bleeding event", especially in the brain, that lasts longer and does more damage because your elevated INR keeps your blood from clotting as quickly as it normally would. (Higher INR generally increases that risk.)

There's no doubt that having a well-managed INR is much better and lower-risk than having one that's badly managed. There's also no doubt that many patients -- especially those who measure and manage their INR themselves, with a home testing unit -- are very good at maintaining their INR within their target therapeutic ranges, with minor nuisance and disruptions when they need dental work or other surgery.

But I think there's also little doubt that even a perfectly-managed INR, and a mech valve, adds both of the aforementioned risks in some measure. A steadily perfect INR provides the best tradeoff between the two hazards, but it doesn't eliminate either of them. E.g., one recent study found that people who'd had "head trauma" (mostly old people who'd fallen and hit their heads) had several TIMES higher risk of coma and cerebral hemorrhage if they had an INR higher than TWO (2) than if they didn't. TWO is a very low INR, and EVERYBODY's therapeutic target range is higher than that. (Mind you, it's possible that MANY of the patients in the study with INR>2 actually had INR much higher than that; I didn't see the numbers on that.)

So that's the bad news for the mechanical valves. The bad news for the tissue valves is much simpler and more obvious: they don't last forever, and yours probably won't last as long as you do, so it will have to be replaced. The replacement is obviously undesirable in a bunch of ways that don't have to be explained, though the actual risks that it will kill you or severely injure you are actively under study and under debate. These "re-op" risks have been improving markedly in the past few decades, and many people are very hopeful that we recent tissue-valvers will eventually be able to have replacement "core valves" slipped inside our failing tissue valves through a catheter inserted in our groin, just like an angiogram or a stent implacement is done today. Maybe, hard to be sure.

Even if the risks of a nasty outcome from ACT turn out to be 1%-2% per year forever, and the risks of a nasty outcome from a re-op (done at a good cardiac center that KNOWS about re-ops) are only 1%-2% per re-op, lots of people would choose the mech + ACT because the idea of going through OHS again is so awful in their minds (in their hearts?) that an increase in statistical risk is a bargain in return for a good shot at never having to have OHS again.

So far, the total life expectancy numbers for a 56-year-old do NOT look asymmetrical, they look pretty even, with the clot-or-bleed death risks roughly balancing out the valve-failure or re-op death risks. So if the MAGNITUDE of the risks of dying early are about the same either way, then the choice is mostly between the KINDS of risks (Are you really determined never to have another OHS? Are you really determined to avoid having a stroke, no matter what?) and the difference in lifestyle and "nuisance" (Are you good or bad at taking pills and getting your blood tested and avoiding big "binges" in diet; Do you jump off roofs or cliffs for fun, and would your life be ruined if you had to stop?)

With those kinds of choices, you're the expert! Again, NEITHER choice is perfect, but EITHER choice is way better than NO choice.

There are some other interesting parts of the choice -- like reasons to believe that one particular valve "model" will perform better than the others (mostly either a tissue valve lasting longer, or a mech valve being quieter or being less likely to "throw" a clot) -- and there are also reasons to think that the situation will change soon in ways that influence the choice. But basically, that's the tradeoff. Lots of people here have already made that choice one way or the other, and most of us are happy with the tradeoff we chose.

A few people here had miserable experiences on ACT, at least one of whom was only doing ACT temporarily, so she's very happy she didn't choose ACT forever. Others have chosen tissue valves that have failed prematurely. Some of them went mechanical the second time, and some went tissue again. In making a choice, it's probably useful to remember that neither choice comes with any guarantee -- though the risks and downsides and nuisances are probably more reliable than the wonderful parts, since Murphy was an optimist! ;)

Young folks and old folks face asymmetrical life-expectancy stats (young mech folks live longer than tissue, and old tissue folks live longer than mech), but I think 56 is up on the "plateau" where the newest and best studies show no difference, or at least no statistically-significant difference, in total risks or LE.

If you're an info junkie, or enjoy reading studies or abstracts of studies, there's lots more posted and linked here, but that's the gist of it, at least as I see it.
 
There is a very extensive discussion of this very topic going on currently at http://www.valvereplacement.org/for...trying-to-make-a-final-decision-my-first-post

Bottom Line: Every Valve has it's positive and negative aspects. People who make their own choice typically choose the valve whose negative aspects they believe they can best live with.

As a BAV and Aortic Aneurysm patient, the Most Important Decision you have to make is to find a Surgeon who has Lots of Experience dealing with those issues which are a step above 'mere valve replacement surgery'.

You may want to browse through the Bicuspid Aortic Valve and Connective Tissue Disorder Forum to learn much more about these often related issues. You will want a surgeon who KNOWS how to recognize signs of a Connective Tissue Disorder and How to Deal with it. These kinds of surgeons are most often found at Major Heart Hospitals.

Personally, I would NOT be comfortable using a surgeon whose practice is primarily limited to doing ByPass Surgery with a few first time 'valve jobs'. Bottom Line: The More they do, the better they are. Find someone who has seen a LOT of BAV's and Aortic Aneurysms.

'AL Capshaw'
 
rosebud.......welcome to the forum. do your homework on all the valves,listen to what your cardio and surgeon say, after all they are the experts, choose whats best for you,.............you wll be just fine
 
Hi,

...... My sister is a heart nurse, she recommends the tissue because of blood thinning meds. Can anyone tell me their experience. Thank you.

"Heart nurses", normally are dealing with patients that are on the "anticoagulant" Warfarin for a variety of health issues. Valve replacement patients make up only a very small part of a Cardiovascular patient roster. They usually use the term "blood thinner" because it gets the attention of their older patients who may be prone to disregard the necessary "regimen" of ACT. If she is in a typical office, they see a minority of younger patients with valve replacements and my experience is that they can do younger patients a disservice with an alarmist attitude towards a drug that does its job very well. Treating an 85 year old with other health issues in addition to "clotting issues" or a-fib is a far cry from dealing with a 50 year old healthy, active, lucid valve patient......been there, done that:tongue2:.

To make a valve choice decision only in the hope of avoiding Warfarin is "letting the tail wag the dog". Like others have said, the important choice is to fix the problem, and either valve choice will work.....unfortunately, neither is perfect and both have "minuses" as well as the "plus" of correcting the problem. Good Luck:thumbup:
 
I was 56 when I had my AVR. It will be three years Feb. I chose tissue. For me, it was the best choice. It is different for each individual. So far, I've had no problems. My last echo was 3mos ago. My cardio said the echo was "perfect". I am aware that if I live long enough, I will outlast my valve. One bit of advice. Once you have made your decsion, and have your AVR, DO NOT second guess yourself regarding your valve choice! Be happy, live your life to the fullest, and be thankful that you have a second chance at life!

Take care and good luck!

Good luck
 
"Heart nurses", normally are dealing with patients that are on the "anticoagulant" Warfarin for a variety of health issues. Valve replacement patients make up only a very small part of a Cardiovascular patient roster. They usually use the term "blood thinner" because it gets the attention of their older patients who may be prone to disregard the necessary "regimen" of ACT. If she is in a typical office, they see a minority of younger patients with valve replacements and my experience is that they can do younger patients a disservice with an alarmist attitude towards a drug that does its job very well. Treating an 85 year old with other health issues in addition to "clotting issues" or a-fib is a far cry from dealing with a 50 year old healthy, active, lucid valve patient......been there, done that:tongue2:.
<snip>



All good points, Dick. But it is important to keep in mind that otherwise healthy, lucid active valve patient may live to become that 85 year old........ on coumadin with whatever issues it is you are referencing that heart nurse is dealing with for that elder patient.
Something to think about when making choices. IMO
 
Rosebud , a heart felt WELCOME to our OHS family the decision you face is a very personal one .....there is a wealth of knowledge here for now and the future ..... .......The more you learn the more you will be comfortable with your decision

ALSO THE ONE THING I WOULD SAY IS ASK QUESTIONS it is paramount that you get all the answers you seek I am attaching links to help you along

I hope these will help you to prepare yourself and your family and home

Bob/tobagotwo has up dated a list of acronyms and short forms http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8494&d=1276042314

what to ask pre surgery http://www.valvereplacement.org/for...68-Pre-surgery-consultation-list-of-questions

what to take with you to the hospital http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?13283-what-to-take-to-the-hospital-a-checklist

Preparing the house for post surgical patients http://www.valvereplacement.org/for...Getting-Comfortable-Around-the-House&p=218802

These are from various forum stickies and there is plenty more to read as well


And Lynw recently added this PDF on what to expect post op
http://www.sts.org/documents/pdf/whattoexpect.pdf
 
For me, the deal breaker was additional VR surgeries. Surgeon told me I'd need 2, possibly 3, additional valve replacements if I chose a tissue valve. I know there is no guarantee with the mechanical valve that I'll never need another surgery; however another surgery is not a given like it would be with a tissue valve.
 
For me, the deal breaker was additional VR surgeries. Surgeon told me I'd need 2, possibly 3, additional valve replacements if I chose a tissue valve. I know there is no guarantee with the mechanical valve that I'll never need another surgery; however another surgery is not a given like it would be with a tissue valve.

It's not necessarily a given anymore... they're rolling out the percutaneous valves now that can fit inside of the old tissue valve frame. They're not mainstream yet, but alot of docs are optimistic that in time they will be.

If it were me personally, I would go with mechanical. I personally will probably go with mechanical unless I believe I have less than 15 years to live, I am going to be pregnant, I have risks that make ACT not a good option, or the percutaneous valves become totally mainstream. But I'm a 27 year old male, so it's easy for me to say.

I'm on coumadin for non valve related reasons, and it does make me a little uneasy sometimes - although I feel very fortunate we have such a medicine. If I were more forgetful or less interested/involved in my care, I might be a stronger tissue valve candidate. If I worked in a knife and glass factory, well, I might consider a tissue valve a little more.

At the end of the day, it truly is a very personal decision that each person has to consider carefully.
 
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Welcome to the party, although we recognize that it is under less than desirable circumstances

If you've got the time and the initiative to do research I'd recommend you find out all you can and make the most informed decision you can for your situation.

One of the VR.org members had pictures taken of his surgery and if you're not squeamish I'd recommend that you take a look so you get familiar with what happens when you have the surgery. Find at: http://www.stretchphotography.com/avr/images

With tissue valves (mostly either pig or cow, some horse, some from cadavers) they degrade over time and so you have reoperations to replace them. The period of time for between reoperations is roughly 12 years, although it could be more, or could be less. So if you get a tissue valve now you'll probably need reoperations roughly at age 68, 80, and 92. Conversely, if you get a mechanical valve, one operation should do it and you won't probably won't have to have any more operations. But, with a mechanical valve you'll have to take the anticoagulant medication Coumadin for the rest of your life.

Open heart surgery is serious stuff. So you need to decide what is best for you.

Good luck, Dan
 
I have severe aortic stenoses with an opening limited to .6cm2 and and a 4.5 centimeter ascending aortic aneurysm. Diagnosed Oct 14 2010. Surgery later this month. I will be 56 this April. Hence we are very similar. I'm also very athletic.

I am going with a MAV and an ascending aorta graft. Prior to meeting with the surgeon, I decided to go mechanical. I want the "best chance" to avoid a 2nd surgery as a result of a repeat failure of my AV with the limitation, worry and dread. I work with technology including carbon so I am aware that their is a probability of failure, but like I said, this is my best opportunity to avoid a repeat surgery. Avoiding surgery out weighs ACT as my personal choice.

During the meeting with the surgeon at Calgary Foothills, he recommended a MAV to go along with the ascending aorta graft. My cardiologist initially suggested a tissue AV, but switched to a recommendation of a MAV, as a re-operation was inevitable with a tissue valve.

We are in the twilight of evolving heart valve technology and it's associated procedures. Albeit, must make our choices on current technologies. We can hope that technology like "ValveXchange" becomes a reality, but we are a ways out and even so, years of reliability follow up is required.

I find it interesting that so many health care workers would choose tissue over mechanical to avoid ACT. My research showed me that those who are on ACT manage it very well and find it to be a minor inconvenience. Just like advances in valve technology, their are brilliant doctors and researches working on an alternative for warfarin. Game on!

I wanted to share my experience and decisions with you, especially as we are close in age and diagnosis.
 
Rosebud, At your age, you are not going to be looking to have a tissue valve replaced every 12 years. Tissue valves are being used more and more and places like Cleveland Clinic and Mayo Clinic in people under 60 for very good reasons. Dan, it's ridiculous to imply that an 80 year old is going to go through a tissue valve in 12 years. You are stating this stuff as facts when they absolutely are not.
 
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