Correct time for valve replacement?

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johnann

I have been doing a lot of research on the internet (probably too much) and I have found tonnes of clinical studies.In almost all of them the result is that the pulmonary valve should be replaced when the right ventricle end diastolic volume is between 150ml and 170ml.They all say that after it reaches 200ml your heart can't recover even after pvr.I got sent for cardiac MRI Oct 2007 and again Dec 2008 and my rvedv is now 280ml and I haven't heard anything from my doctor.Has anybody else felt like the doctors just don't care?
Everybody keeps telling me if it was bad they would have called you by now.
I got a copy of my MRI results and translated most of it on the internet and from what I can tell it is very bad.
What would you do?
There aren't many specialists around here and mine is the head of the adult congenital heart clinic.I don't want to keep phoning and harassing him but dying doesn't look good either.:confused:
 
Hi Johnann,

Welcome to this great forum. When in doubt, it is your patient right to question and find out the answers. Could you talk to you personal GP about this or perhaps ask for a second opinion? I know it is not as easy in Canada to go this route, but remember it is your body and health.
Good luck with everything and keep us posted.
 
Hi and Welcome Johnann, its always nice to see another Canadian on board.

Yes indeed, get on that phone and make appointments to those Doctors that have the answers.
You don't want to get lost in their paper work. You have to stay on top of them and get the answers you need.
Good Luck and please keep us informed.
 
Hi Johnann - I know exactly how you feel. I had to fight tooth and nail to have my PVR, which they finally got to December last year (7 weeks ago today!).

I didn't know what the "normal" RVEDV was (it seems all these tests are predominately set up to deal with the left side of the heart and so I only have "normal" ranges for the LVEDV), but in Jan 2007 my RVEDV was 189mls and by Jan 2008 was 239mls. Still they were telling me this was only moderate (although that's still quite a change if you ask me!).

I have a book on Tetralogy of Fallot (which is why I needed my PRV) and according to the experts in the field who wrote it, other indications it is time for a PVR are:

Fatigue, exercise intolerance unexplained by factors other than right ventricular abnormalities.
Greater than mild right ventricular enlargement.
Abnormal exercise test: low VO2 unexplained by other factors.
Mild to borderline decreased right ventricular systolic function.
Arrhythmia unexplained by factors other than right ventricular enlargement.

The final determination, in terms of when to intervene for pulmonary valve replacement despite all of the available studies, can be difficult. Those patients with moderate to severe RV enlargement and moderate to severe pulmonary regurgitation with symptoms, clearly need to have their valve replaced; if they have reached this stage, one has probably waited a bit too long. Because there is a good operation with low morbitity and mortality and the longevity for current biosprosthetic valves is reasonably good, earlier intervention is probably the proper choice. In most patientes with border-line decreases in ejection fraction, moderate or greater degrees of pulmonary regurgitation, and modest or greater degrees of exercise intolerance, repalcement of the pulmonary valve is indicated.

(The Adult with Tetralogy of Fallot: Michael A Gatzoulis, MD, PhD & Daniel J Murphy, Jr,. MD)


Now I don't know if you also have ToF, but since you're seeing an ACHD cardio, I'm guessing you probably do. Either way I would imagine the same parameters would apply.

In my own case, even when I was able to tick ALL the boxes above in regard to having severe pulmonary regurg, lowered EF, enlarged RV, exercise intolerance, thousands of PVCs a day, etc... they were still trying to tell me they didn't think my heart was the cause of my symptoms (I must have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome!!) and that they didn't want to go ahead with a PVR! I was lucky enough to move interstate again and see a new cardiologist who - while still doubful the PVR would help - was prepared to go ahead with it if that was what I wanted (YES!!!). I took all the above info with me to the meeting with my surgeon, but he agreed it was time, so I didn't have to try and convince him - but I wasn't going to leave his office unless he had agreed to the surgery!!

Anyway, I had the surgery and already I am seeing some fairly significant changes. I can talk on the phone and not get short of breath. I can walk at pace and barely get short of breath - even with me TALKING at the same time!!! My BF commented I hadn't been able to do that in years!! Another big difference is that going for a walk once again lifts my energy levels some, whereas in the last few years prior to the surgery, regular exercise and even walking was becoming increasingly difficult and tiring.

Even at my 2 week post-op Doppler, my cardio had to admit that even without having my last test to compare it to, he could see the improvement to my heart function.

Seems I was right after all!!

So, take it from me, get as much info as you can and push as hard as you need to, to get things done. Don't rely on waiting for them to get things sorted - you are only one of many patients they have and therefore not their highest priority. You have to MAKE yourself their highest priority!!

Like you I was also very scared that by waiting too long I wouldn't make the recovery I could if they acted in time and even with the improvements so far, I still don't know how much more I will recover. I'm hoping to get back to where I was before I became symptomatic, but at this stage it's still too soon to tell. Still - I HAVE made improvements and that is a good sign, so don't give up all hope yet.

Good luck!


Anna : )
 
Hi - another Canuck, eh? We'll soon be ruling VR.com :D

If it were me, I would go see the cardio, and INSIST on an appointment with a surgeon; from what I have read here, cardios can be somewhat conservative in recommending surgery (they wait until damage is done) while surgeons tend to want to operate before damage is done.

And no, they don't always call you - my father had a biopsy report from a mole (it was removed in emergency out of town) put in his file. The report said "patient to be seen by an oncologist ASAP." Good thing my father asked at a routine physical - and the doctor changed how reports are dealt with in his office!
 
Thank You

Thank You

Thank you for all your replies.It is so nice to know i'm not alone.
Just a little more information : I had surgery for pulmonary valve stenosis at 8 months and now at 33 have severe pulmonary regurgitation (58%)and enlarged right ventricle.I Have always pushed myself so hard and couldn't stand to be told that I couldn't do something because it was too hard.I can't describe what it feels like to get winded just walking to the bathroom or having people say no you can't carry that i'll get it.I thank everyone for being on here not just for themselves but for everyone.It is nice to find people that understand.
 
Hi Johnann - I know exactly how you feel. I had to fight tooth and nail to have my PVR, which they finally got to December last year (7 weeks ago today!).

I didn't know what the "normal" RVEDV was (it seems all these tests are predominately set up to deal with the left side of the heart and so I only have "normal" ranges for the LVEDV), but in Jan 2007 my RVEDV was 189mls and by Jan 2008 was 239mls. Still they were telling me this was only moderate (although that's still quite a change if you ask me!).

I have a book on Tetralogy of Fallot (which is why I needed my PRV) and according to the experts in the field who wrote it, other indications it is time for a PVR are:

Fatigue, exercise intolerance unexplained by factors other than right ventricular abnormalities.
Greater than mild right ventricular enlargement.
Abnormal exercise test: low VO2 unexplained by other factors.
Mild to borderline decreased right ventricular systolic function.
Arrhythmia unexplained by factors other than right ventricular enlargement.

The final determination, in terms of when to intervene for pulmonary valve replacement despite all of the available studies, can be difficult. Those patients with moderate to severe RV enlargement and moderate to severe pulmonary regurgitation with symptoms, clearly need to have their valve replaced; if they have reached this stage, one has probably waited a bit too long. Because there is a good operation with low morbitity and mortality and the longevity for current biosprosthetic valves is reasonably good, earlier intervention is probably the proper choice. In most patientes with border-line decreases in ejection fraction, moderate or greater degrees of pulmonary regurgitation, and modest or greater degrees of exercise intolerance, repalcement of the pulmonary valve is indicated.

(The Adult with Tetralogy of Fallot: Michael A Gatzoulis, MD, PhD & Daniel J Murphy, Jr,. MD)


Now I don't know if you also have ToF, but since you're seeing an ACHD cardio, I'm guessing you probably do. Either way I would imagine the same parameters would apply.

In my own case, even when I was able to tick ALL the boxes above in regard to having severe pulmonary regurg, lowered EF, enlarged RV, exercise intolerance, thousands of PVCs a day, etc... they were still trying to tell me they didn't think my heart was the cause of my symptoms (I must have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome!!) and that they didn't want to go ahead with a PVR! I was lucky enough to move interstate again and see a new cardiologist who - while still doubful the PVR would help - was prepared to go ahead with it if that was what I wanted (YES!!!). I took all the above info with me to the meeting with my surgeon, but he agreed it was time, so I didn't have to try and convince him - but I wasn't going to leave his office unless he had agreed to the surgery!!

Anyway, I had the surgery and already I am seeing some fairly significant changes. I can talk on the phone and not get short of breath. I can walk at pace and barely get short of breath - even with me TALKING at the same time!!! My BF commented I hadn't been able to do that in years!! Another big difference is that going for a walk once again lifts my energy levels some, whereas in the last few years prior to the surgery, regular exercise and even walking was becoming increasingly difficult and tiring.

Even at my 2 week post-op Doppler, my cardio had to admit that even without having my last test to compare it to, he could see the improvement to my heart function.

Seems I was right after all!!

So, take it from me, get as much info as you can and push as hard as you need to, to get things done. Don't rely on waiting for them to get things sorted - you are only one of many patients they have and therefore not their highest priority. You have to MAKE yourself their highest priority!!

Like you I was also very scared that by waiting too long I wouldn't make the recovery I could if they acted in time and even with the improvements so far, I still don't know how much more I will recover. I'm hoping to get back to where I was before I became symptomatic, but at this stage it's still too soon to tell. Still - I HAVE made improvements and that is a good sign, so don't give up all hope yet.

Good luck!


Anna : )

TERRIFIC Post Anna !

Thanks for sharing your the story of your struggle to get proper treatment for your heart condition.

Sometimes the PATIENT is RIGHT !

'AL Capshaw'
 
Sometimes the numbers are different for people with CHD who already had surgery, but I definately would call just to see what is going on. Many times for CHD repairs they go by what the pulmonary gradient is as well as symptons. I BELIEVE depending on the case usually surgeons start talking about PVR with gradients over 60-65, but that isn't set in stone since My son's gradients are usually in the 90s before intervention BUt he did well on his stress tests.
IF you haven't heard from them since your last MRI I defeinately would be putting in a call and asking if they advise surgery and if not why?

editted
What was your vol in the 07 MRI was the 280 a big increase? IF it is any consolation, I just reread Justin's reports and they can improve over 200 because his year post op report says "Right ventricular volume had decreased from 311 cc to 235 cc (114 cc/m2 - mildly dilated)."
 
Sometimes the numbers are different for people with CHD who already had surgery, but I definately would call just to see what is going on. Many times for CHD repairs they go by what the pulmonary gradient is as well as symptons. I BELIEVE depending on the case usually surgeons start talking about PVR with gradients over 60-65, but that isn't set in stone since My son's gradients are usually in the 90s before intervention BUt he did well on his stress tests.
IF you haven't heard from them since your last MRI I defeinately would be putting in a call and asking if they advise surgery and if not why?

editted
What was your vol in the 07 MRI was the 280 a big increase? IF it is any consolation, I just reread Justin's reports and they can improve over 200 because his year post op report says "Right ventricular volume had decreased from 311 cc to 235 cc (114 cc/m2 - mildly dilated)."

I never got a copy of my 2007 MRI results but I made an appointment for this Friday with my family doctor to see what he has to say and I will ask for a copy then so I can compare them.I'm really glad your son is recovering so well.It gives me a bit of hope although I am a bit older than him.Hopefully I haven't let myself go too bad in my old age:)
 
I never got a copy of my 2007 MRI results but I made an appointment for this Friday with my family doctor to see what he has to say and I will ask for a copy then so I can compare them.I'm really glad your son is recovering so well.It gives me a bit of hope although I am a bit older than him.Hopefully I haven't let myself go too bad in my old age:)


Hopefully you will recover just as well, you are older, but that was his 5th OHS and he had a PVR/conduit replacemnt 2 years before that. BTW Justin ACHD Doc he has now was stolen from Canada, Dr Webb.
 
Hello and welcome to the zoo!
It's wise to get copies of all your reports and learn to be politely pushy.
Don't be shy to get second opinions, but it sounds like you are ready to book a surgeon's visit.
 
TERRIFIC Post Anna !

Thanks for sharing your the story of your struggle to get proper treatment for your heart condition.

Sometimes the PATIENT is RIGHT !

'AL Capshaw'

Johnanne,

We cannot depend on doctors to call us back. We have to fight for our health.
I was trying all my life to fight "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome" because doctors kept telling me that my fatigue was not related to my valves/heart! Now, I wish I had this surgery 20 years ago if I could.

Anna, I totally agree with Al! very well said and thanks for sharing it.
 
Anna, I totally agree with Al! very well said and thanks for sharing it.

Thanks :rolleyes: I know there's still a lot of long-timers here who remember when I was first told I needed this back in 2003, only to have them do a complete back-flip, so it's been a very long and frustrating journey.


Bina is absolutely spot on though... GET COPIES OF EVERYTHING!!! When I compare results from 10 years ago - even 5 years ago - to some of my more recent tests, it astounds me that they considered I was "stable", when things were clearly degenerating. Had I not been looking at the results myself, I may have believed I had CFS... or was just getting older/lazier/crazier..!! By having the results I was able to research my condition and the appropriate timing for the PVR, and it gave me the info I needed to make it happen.
 
sooner the better

sooner the better

.

hello johnann

my experience indicated "sooner the better". it is important to get it done before there is long term permanent damage. in my case, i had mitral valve replacement surgery privately, a long time before the nz public health system would have done the job. i had a "mildly dialated" left ventrical. since the operation 11 months ago, the left ventrical is moving back into shape, but no one can guarantee it will end up 100%. the job got done "just in time"

but,if i had waited for for the nz public health system to do it, i would have been guaranteed permanent damage to my heart.

my guess is you are going through the canadian health system and your operation will be scheduled on a "priority basis, resources permitting". i do not know anything about your health system, but if it is anything like ours it is over loaded and stretched and unable to conduct "elective surgery" at the optimal time.

i suggest you get a private consultation ( make sure you do NOT see a specialist you have seen in the public system, many of them moonlight in the private system), almost certainly you will find that more urgency will be attached to your operation.

waiting for a public health system to contact you may be putting your health in danger
 
.

i suggest you get a private consultation ( make sure you do NOT see a specialist you have seen in the public system, many of them moonlight in the private system), almost certainly you will find that more urgency will be attached to your operation.

waiting for a public health system to contact you may be putting your health in danger

In Canada, although we have some private clinics in certain areas (at least here in Quebec), they are few and far between, and I have never heard of one that does heart surgery.

Johnann, I do think that if you pushed to see a surgeon, you could do so, and if you stressed that you want it sooner than later, you could probably be put on the waiting list.
 
Sooner is better then later

Sooner is better then later

I consulted with three surgeons about my aortic valve replacement. One said "go ahead and finish building your new home, move in and then come see me about getting this fixed."(A 4 month delay) The other said no rush but probably better to do in withing the next 2 months. Then I went to Stanford and had a bunch of tests. Their opinion.. do it NOW which I did 2 days after their consultation. After the surgery the surgeon told me that my aorta was paper thin and could have ruptured anytime. I was a walking time bomb living on borrowed time. So if your going to have do it I think it's better to just go forward quickly and get it behind you and eliminate any risk associated with waiting.
 
Johnann,

I also have tetralogy of fallot. I had my PVR in 1990.

I would definitely call. Your health depends on you getting good care. What concerns me is your regurg fraction of 58%. That tells me that your right ventricle enlargement is at least partially secondary to the pulmonary valve regurg. How is your tricuspid valve doing with all that enlargement? It is leaking also?

Debbie
 

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