Paranoid about hospital infections.

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philly_bob

Member
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
9
Location
Philadelphia
Thanks to what you folks have shared, I'm feeling OK with my scheduled valve replacement -- a week of feeling like I've been run over by a Mack truck, and then a steady hard recovery, and then, if all goes well, feeling better than I do today.

But what worries me is the possibility of complications, especially infections I pick up in the hospital.

Two questions:

(1) Would shaving my balding hair, mustache, and full beard reduce the chance of infection? Or, alternatively, with my operation scheduled for 6/16, would it increase the chance of infection by leaving skin raw.

(2) How can I gently remind hospital staff that I want them to be very careful about following anti-infection practices? For instance, if I shaved my beard, I could make a sign that said: "I shaved my beard to avoid infection. Please help me avoid infection in any way you can." Or should I simply trust the hospital's cleanliness practices. I don't want to be a complainer...

Any other ways to reduce the chance of infection?

Bob=
 
"(2) How can I gently remind hospital staff that I want them to be very careful about following anti-infection practices? For instance, if I shaved my beard, I could make a sign that said: "I shaved my beard to avoid infection. Please help me avoid infection in any way you can." Or should I simply trust the hospital's cleanliness practices. I don't want to be a complainer..."

LOL...I think this would be a very quick way to alienate the staff! I don't know how long it has been since you have been in the hospital, but all of the ones that I've been in all have disinfectant hung on the wall that are "supposed" to be used whenever they come in and go out. Obviously, that doesn't always happen. I certainly think you would be ok by gently reminding anyone who comes in to wash their hands if you notice that they haven't. Unfortunately, some hospitals are better than others. You can only do so much in this regard...


By the way, welcome.


Kim
 
Bob, You can trim your hair and beard as you wish because they will be covered during surgery. If you are concerned about shaving in the hospital, then, don't. Your beard can wait until you get home; no one else will care. In my hospital they did not shave my chest but instead clipped the hair close to the skin. They don't shave patients with a razor to avoid broken skin. If this is a real concern, you can always clip your own a day or so before surgery. If you are not in need of bypass surgery at the same time, probably, only your chest will be clipped. When bypass surgery is performed in addition to AVR then both legs are also clipped. The special antibiotic soap you will be given to start using at home a couple of days before surgery is intended to help further reduce the chance of infection; you will use it several times before surgery. After surgery, my incision was sealed under a water-proof tape which didn't come off until the incision had healed over at the end of the third week post op.

There is nothing wrong with you observing the hospital staff and requesting that they observe the routines to avoid spreading infections. I think you will find that cardiac surgical floors in general are very aware of the need to avoid spreading bacteria. In my hospital, everyone was extremely careful on my floor. After you leave the ICU, you may want to discuss this issue with your nurse so the staff knows of your concern. It isn't a delicate matter that should offend anyone in a hospital. More likely you will find that they are already hyper alert to insuring your safe journey through their care.

Larry
 
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Paranoid?

Paranoid?

First, paranoia is fear of everything; hopefully, that's not where you're at. You may have a phobia...that's a specific fear of something that tends to consume someone. Phobia's are pretty common...fear of heights, fear of flying, etc...

I'm puzzled as to why you think shaving facial hair and hair on your head will reduce the risk of infection. Have you found some kind of legitimate research study that shows some kind of major connection with hair on your head and infection?

Sure, they shave areas of your body which are in close proximity of where they open you up so they can paint you up to create a sterile field and avoid the potential problems of nasty stuff migrating into the opening. Prior to my surgery, I had to shower twice with an anti-bacterial soap that the hospital staff gave me.

How long is your beard and hair? I suspect they would use a curtain device to keep your any creepy crawlies from your beard from presenting a problem.

I think they had me on some pretty serious antibiotics immediately following surgery. Germs really didn't stand much of a chance.

Ask you surgeon if he has any concerns. I doubt he's going to tell you to do any kind of full body shave. A lot of fears can be addressed by simply visiting with your surgeon.

You can always do the crewcut thing on your head and face if it gives you more peace of mind. That way you won't be raw, but you'll still have a headstart on growing some hair back as you recover and rehab.

I didn't shave my head before surgery and I didn't have any problems. I didn't shave while I was in the hospital either. If the nurses in your hospital are anything like mine, you'll be showering within twenty-four hours after surgery anyway.

-Philip
 
This is going to be a rant and I am not going to hold back on this one, I'm going to talk about some nasty things.

Hospital infections are REAL! Joe picked up C-Diff diarrhea in the hospital. It was a horrible thing and took months and months to get rid of, and many medications and many specialists working on it, and a ton of money.

He picked up MRSA an antibiotic resistant staph infection.

He picked up a Klebsiella blood infection.

He picked up Klebsiella pneumonia.

I spent days, weeks and months hanging around hospital because Joe was so ill with his long medical history. I had a lot of time on my hands and time to observe and snoop around the rooms he was in looking for filth. Here is what I have found.

Not every medical person washes their hands, and that includes the doctors. Granted, now, they have those alcohol based hand sanitizing dispensers either in the rooms or in the hallway. Maybe they work as well, I am not so sure.

It isn't only medical personnel that come into your rooms. The housekeeping staff is moving from room to room cleaning the floors, the bathrooms, and other dirty things. Their shoes alone are enough to transfer germs from one room to another. Sure they use antibacterial stuff to clean, but they do not get into the crevices or detail the room on a daily basis, and probably never.

Then there are the food delivery personnel who come into every room.

Hospital floors are places where a lot of things happen, I don't want to be gross, but there are all kinds of eliminations happening on that floor, both in the room where the bed is and in the bathroom. That also goes for the furniture, the bed, the chairs both patient chairs and visitor chairs.

You may be in a room where someone or many others have had nasty infections.

I watched them strip down rooms after patients left. Yes, they go over things, but do they actually detail things, no, they don't.

The underside of the chair arm rests is a particular place for filth of all kinds, ditto the underside and top of the bed table. The side rails of the beds, especially the underneath portion of them is a filthy place. The telephone, all over it, including the cord is absolutely filthy. Hopefully, each patient will get their own new phone, but in many hospitals this is not the case. The television case and knobs are filthy, and probably the arm if you have that kind of TV.

Most male patients will place the full urinal on their bed table for the staff to empty. That's a given. Always, always ask someone to wipe down this tray table with the alcohol based hand sanitizer stuff and if you are going to place food on it, put down some paper towels after cleaning.

Things like Hoyer lifts can be filthy. I found some brown stains on the sling of one that they were going to use on Joe. If they never caught that, one wonders about the chains of that equipment, handles, etc.

Joe once had a diarrhea accident, he was very ill. The nurse was the one who came in to clean him and the mess up. She got some towels and cleaned things up, then placed the towels on the sink counter where he was placing his toothbrush and other toiletries. I almost had a stroke. I told her in no uncertain words what I felt about that.

You may have a roommate at some time in your stay. Your roommate may not be very well. One time, Joe had a roommate with a bad diarrhea condition. He wore diapers, and the staff would change him and leave the dirty diapers in the covered basket in the room. They rarely emptied this. It smelled to high Heaven. My feeling is that if you can smell it, there are particles lingering in the air. I was finally able to convince someone to take care of it. Who knows, he might have caught C-Diff from that place.

Hospitals have very, very ill people with all kinds of things wrong with them, many life-threatening. It is certainly plausible that they are never, ever cleaned thoroughly enough to eliminate all germs, even with antibacterials.

Here is what you can do to try to minimize the germ overload. Try not to touch the underside of anything. Ask for a new phone for yourself. If you are well enough to use the sink to wash up, place paper towels on all the surfaces before you put your toiletries down.

As mentioned above, wipe down your bed table with either soap and water or the alcohol based sanitizer, and if you have a water glass or other food on that table, put down paper towels first.

Ask for two wash basins, one for personal cleansing, and one for your face.

Bring hand sanitizer into the hospital with you and use it whenever you feel the need. Ask your wife or other loved one to wipe down the handles on the TV, edges of the bed table, bed handrails, chair hand rails, etc.

If you are going to be put into a chair for a while, ask them to get either a blanket or sheet to place on the chair first as a barrier. The seat of this chair has seen some action in the past, not all of it good, and there are a lot of crevices, hinges, pores in the fabric etc. that could harbor someone else's germs.

Make sure you see all the staff either wash their hands or use the hand sanitizer, and if you don't, tell them to do it. Too bad, if they are grumpy about it. They are supposed to be doing this.

Some of Joe's doctors wiped down their stethoscopes with alcohol before they used it on Joe, and others did not. I think that is a good idea. You don't want to have someone else's germs transferred that way.

There are limits to how long any IV can remain in one place in your arm. make sure you know just how long that is, and if it goes beyond that time limit, then complain about it until they get someone in there to place a new one in a different location. Blood infections can come from that.

Make sure that you have someone who will be with you as much as possible to help you and be your advocate and watch over you when you are sleeping, etc.
 
hi bob, i can only speak for the hospitals i had my op and aftercare in, but there where great, very very clean,i think in general hospitals have raised the bar as far as infections etc go, i worried a bit like you but to be honest there where spotless, nancy am so sorry your husband went through all that, nobody should have to,
 
Well, Neil, Joe was in the hospital so many times over the years with all sorts of issues, not just heart surgery. I want to mention that this happened in not just one, but several hospitals, two in Schenectady, NY, two in Albany, NY, even one in Boston, Mass. So it is not a problem with just one hospital, it is a global problem and if hospitals are trying to address hospital bourne infections, that is good, but they have a long way to go.

What you see is usually good, it is what you don't see that is the problem.

My husband's experiences are not at all unique. They are more the norm, than not.
 
I'm completely with Nancy on this one.

Two times my wife was in the hospital, the room became a part of the ward that was marked off by signs at the door, because of infections that were being passed between patients.

When my son's mother was in the hospital with acute myelitic leukemia, and extrememly vulnerable to infections, I saw a nurse put on gloves, handle the IV tree (one of the filthiest items in a hospital), and go over to adjust the line in her neck. She pleaded with me not to say anything while it was happening, as she was afraid to alienate the nurses, on whom she depended. She got a very nasty infection from that, that nearly did her in right then.

Recently, it's come out that the units used for colonoscopies are not being fully or properly cleaned between patients. While it was first brought to light in a VA hospital in Florida, the issue has been sweeping through the country's hospitals. Thousands of patients are being brought back through for free AIDS testing. Why? Well, who cleans the tools? People who are being paid minimum wage, are given one training session on the task (not that some of the trainers are any great shakes, either), and are ignored and unsupervised thereafter. Many don't speak English well and don't even understand the training.

I have observed several times in hospitals that many of the nurses do not speak English well enough to understand instructions. I've watched bilingual nurses quickly trying to explain to their coworkers what the head nurse just told them to do. When the English-speaking nurse is not there to translate, they just nod when given instructions, and shrug in confusion when the supervisor walks away.

Last time I was in the hospital, a fellow came in in the middle of the night, apparently to check on things and refill the water. Rather than take the top off the water carafe, he simply used the side of his hand to guide the water into the smaller opening. Needless to say, I had no more water until morning (I still had two chest tubes in, attached to machines on either side, so there was no getting up). Think of the things he might have touched before he got to my room...

I saw lots of similar issues during my stays, and the stays of others, because I look for them. When hospital workers put on gloves, they tend to think of themselves as protected, and forget that the gloves are also to protect you.

I can't see any advantage to shaving or even trimming your facial hair.

You most likely will not get a hospital-borne infection, but you would be foolish not to be observant of anyone tending to you. If you see something, you must say something. Don't let anything happen to you that could endanger you. You can say it reasonably, "Look, it may seem silly, but I'm very conscious of germs, and the fact that you were washing things up in the bathroom with those gloves is just disturbing me a great deal. Do you think you could get another pair from that box over there before you adjust my central line?" And if they don't take it reasonably, report them to a doctor or nurse. Do it with some tact, but be precise about what they did. You may be saving the next patient's life (or even the careworker's).

Best wishes,
 
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Ditto to Nancy, she is right on.
My late Mom had 20 years of kidney failure/dialysis/transplant and a couple of other things. My Dad watched over her hospital bed like a hawk for 18 hours a day. Nurses are people, and some are just naturally cleaner or germier than others. Another sure fire way to introduce germs is by having visitors....imagine what comes in on THEIR hands, shoes, etc.
With all that said, do the best you can to get your rest, eat well, and keep your own hand sanitizer by the bed.
 
Nancy is dead right!

My own observations include all of hers plus, I watched a nurse bring in a new IV line, dragging the end on the floor the whole way over to the IV stand. I immediately demanded that she throw it away and go get another, UNOPENED, bring it in and let me watch her hook it all up. I caught many not washing their hands or gloving up and refused to let them touch me. Why? Because through both OHS surgeries, I got staph infections from hospital equipment. For someone with a new mechanical valve, that could mean another surgery almost immediately if that crap sets up shop on the valve.

Another thing I noticed while laying in that darn bed, they never clean the duct work in the rooms. It is beyond filthy and I filed complaints about it too.

Don't be afraid to post whatever you feel necessary and BITE if you must, not just bark.
 
Oh, duct work, you are so right!

One of the best things you can do is to do everything they tell you and try to get the He-- out of there as fast as possible. And also try to vow to yourself that you will stay out of the hospital in the future if at all possible.

Yes, we all have germs in our own homes, but they are OUR germs and we have acclimated to them.
 
How's your phobia now?

How's your phobia now?

Well, Bob, hopefully some of the posts in reply to your questions give you some peace of mind regarding your facial hair and the hair on your scalp. Maybe, you have less to worry about with your own hair causing infections than the unsanitary conditions described by some of the folks who responded to your post.

If it's any consolation, the hospital I had my surgery in maintained very sanitary conditions. I've no doubt there are many hospitals which don't. My wife served on the board of directors for a small, rural, community hospital and the hospital had an ongoing problem related to "staph" infections.

Again, should you really have concerns about the potential for infections, visiting with your surgeon about your concerns would be a good idea. I also recommend visiting the ICCU and stepdown unit at the hospital where you'll be having surgery. I did this several times pre-op. The folks who took care of me knew who I was before I had surgery; they were also well aware of my concerns and potential issues.

Oh, all of my nurses spoke really good English too.

-Philip
 
If it's any consolation, the hospital I had my surgery in maintained very sanitary conditions. I've no doubt there are many hospitals which don't. My wife served on the board of directors for a small, rural, community hospital and the hospital had an ongoing problem related to staff infections.

-Philip

I'm sure the administrators of that Hospital would smile about your "staff infections" comment. :))
The Serious Issue in Hospitals is "Staph" (pronounced "staff") Infections, short for a much longer medical term.

'AL C'
 
Which Staff (Staph) was I talking about?

Which Staff (Staph) was I talking about?

Thanks for the correction Al, my staff just threw my a going away party and I'm feeling the large quanity of Scottish ale I consumed. It should be illegal to post when one is under the influence...too many "airs".

-Philip
 
Unfortunately, I am not under the influence right now. :) Very interesting thread. I am very afraid of infection also. I was wondering if I could bring a couple of those containers of Clorox wipes with me when Colin has the surgery. Do hospitals let you do that? If so, I will be wiping down everything in sight.
 
Our hospital did wipe down everything each day, all garbage bags were removed, bathroom sanitized, floor mopped, etc.
There's only so much we can worry about, but keep your eyes open.
 
Thanks to everybody for their responses. I'm not clinically "paranoid," I'm more casually paranoid, as a synonym for worried. I'll forget about shaving the beard and hair.

I'm still nervous about hospital infection and wondering how to politely remind the people who maintain the various punctures in my body if I see them using sub-optimal cleanliness.

I already have tried using positive reinforcement. My cardiologist's nurse Danielle has this really graceful technique of leaving a room, where she squirts the cleaner on her hand after she opens the door, and then washes her hands as the door closes. I've complimented her on it.

I have a buddy who's a restaurant chef. He's told me about high-tech food safety methods used in food preparation, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazard_Analysis_and_Critical_Control_Points, makes for interesting reading.

I'm very happy to have you folks around.

Bob=
 
Having just gotten out of the hospital and myself being paranoid (not clinically as Bob puts it), I think the best thing you can do is research the hospital and the surgeon. I was also very lucid due to my high tolerance to most psychoactive drugs.

I went to Mount Sinai in Miami Beach and it was clean, and the nurses followed protocol. This was in large part due to the hospital recruiting a big name surgeon (my surgeon), Dr. Joseph Lamelas, who is probably the single most focused, detailed oriented person I have met and one of his conditions for going to Mount Sinai was that they gave his surgery practice it's own wing, which was supervised by him.

I would research your hospital.
 
It isn't paranoid to be careful about serious things. To be aware of the possibilities of hospital bourne infections is your best protection.

That is why hospitals are really trying to cut down on these types of infections. But they have a very long way to go, and they cannot monitor every person that works for them.

This is all part of being proactive as a patient, so you don't come out of the hospital with something you didn't have before.

MRSA can be a killer.
Klebsiella pneumonia can kill and pretty fast.
Klebsiella blood infections are very nasty.
c-Diff diarrhea is absolutely horrible, nasty, stinky and unrelenting. It is very hard to get rid of.
Any of the staph infections have dire possibilities.

Joe had these, Ross mentioned that he also got a nosocomial infection (proper words for hospital bourne infections)

And I am sure all of the people on this site who developed such an infection while hospitalized would be more proactive about their care if they ever were hospitalized again. I think we have had some folks who didn't make it because of such an infection.

So please, don't consider it being paranoid. It is prudent and wise to be extremely careful with something that has the potential to kill you.
 

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