Retirement?

[Marguerite53]

As always, Bob makes some astute points. I rather balked at putting any response in after his!! Great thoughts, Bob.

I love Lyn's idea of charging people! I also like Bina's idea of flagging them with warnings and cool-down times. This led me to wonder about this option:

Can you place something over someone's thread reply? In other words, can you keep the bad post intact, but place a banner over it (just enough to be obnoxiously bright, but letting people still be able to read through it) which says something like, "this kind of response will not be tolerated". Thus you are essentially placing that deviant member in the corner on a stool with a Dunce Cap on. Others can read what has been written (I've missed all the controversial threads because they do not interest me so I honestly don't even know exactly what "bad" is) and the writers can be publicly admonished. But their "freedom of speech" remains!

The reason I thought this banner might be useful is that Ross has to stay sane! He should be able to look at something and just press a button and be done with it. We shouldn't be elevating his blood pressure like this! Nor should we be threatening him, or devaluing him by allowing hurtful attacks on him. If someone gets enough no-no banners on his posts, he/she will either leave or change their tune.

You deserve some good answers here, Ross. You've been putting up with way too much crap. I hope others will continue to help Ross and Hank think this thing through.

Marguerite

 

[Bridgette]

Well, I think that we should keep it simple - have clearly defined rules that people sign to acknowledge that they understand and are prepared to abide by them.....I guess we already have a system like that in place but some people just can't play by the rules?

Ross, I think you do such an awesome job running this place, and you don't get the thanks and recognition that you deserve, so I'm going to stand up and say YOU'RE THE BEST!!!!!! People who abuse, whine and complain about you should just stop, take a breath and reflect on whether THEY would be prepared to do your job and put up with all the crap.

I think you and Chou would make a great moderator team!!

Bridgette

 

[Danny]

Im open and want to stay that way. Some things i see on here are not what id like to hear, but if we all agreed , this would be a place i wouldnt want to be. I like hearing differences in opinions. I like to look at it from all sides, and try to make an educated opinion myself. Im learning alot from the long time , and short time users. The way i look at it, you just cant take things personally. This is a wonderful site. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Ross]

The forum rules are presented to new users signing up. Those rules were revised and are posted in the Technical Support Forum. With that being said and taking into account some of Tobagotwo's post, the rules are a guideline and only a guideline. Now we could be real pricks and enforce them at every turn in any given thread, but the forum isn't likely to be a forum very long if we rule it with an Iron Fist. We ask mainly that people use common sense and treat others how'd they'd like to be treated themselves.

Here are the rules:

Forum Rules

Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

Although the administrators and moderators of ValveReplacement.com Forums will attempt to keep objectionable materials off of this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. Each posted message expresses the views of its author, and neither the owners of ValveReplacement.com Forums, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, objectionable, of hurtful intent, or in violation of law. Individuals may also be banned from posting on this site for other infractions, including (but not limited to): trolling, creating more than one forum profile without webmaster's expressed authorization (regardless of purpose), intentionally false or misleading postings, advertising without the expressed consent of the webmaster, failure to heed an administrator's or moderator's warnings, or blatant disregard of either entity.

The owners of ValveReplacement.com Forums reserve the right to retain or to ban any individual or member from use of the site, and to remove, edit, move, or close any post, thread, or part thereof at will, for any reason or no reason at all, without notification.

I have read, and agree to abide by the ValveReplacement.com Forums rules.

A friend of mine who is a moderator at another forum wrote this up during one of his moments of wanting to push the ban button on someone.

Regardless of how many would think the interweb should work there are spots in the WWW that are owned and moderated by an unpaid set of volunteers that try and enforce the site owners visions and rules. Fighting about the sites rules is like going into a police station yelling kill all the pigs. Police stations are different from town to town, county to county... The internet is a space of domain owned by folks that want THEIR site to be run by THEIR rules and anyone wanting to share in that domain can be part of it as long as they follow the vision of the OWNER. As all things in life we have a choice to obey the rules set by the owner of who's property we patronage or not stay in THEIR establishment. If you were to come to my house and tell me how to run it you would loose your welcome instantly. The WWW is not a democracy and never will be. You have to obey the rules of the domain you visit or go bye bye.

They funny part about this thread so far, is that most of you are ducking the questions and offering suggestions. Not quite what I had in mind, but it's proving to be useful anyhow.

 

[ALCapshaw2]

The forum rules are presented to new users signing up. Those rules were revised and are posted in the Technical Support Forum. With that being said and taking into account some of Tobagotwo's post, the rules are a guideline and only a guideline. Now we could be real pricks and enforce them at every turn in any given thread, but the forum isn't likely to be a forum very long if we rule it with an Iron Fist. We ask mainly that people use common sense and treat others how'd they'd like to be treated themselves.

Well Said Ross !

I wouldn't want your job even if the pay were increased 10-fold ....
(let's see, 10X nuttin' is still nuttin', right?)

'AL Capshaw'

 

[Ross]

If I were associated as a moderator or other authority within the site, I would feel that that independence could be compromised in the eyes of other members, even if it were not in actuality. In the position, I would likely be privy to a lot of emails and opinions about other members (a practical necessity for the monitoring function), and that would create in my mind an artificial separation between me and other, "non-informed" members. When things become (as they will in life) "us vs. them" on occasion, I would rather be neither.

Best wishes,

Here is where I disagree and largely why we have the problems that we do.

The owner doesn't have time to be here all the time and watch what goes on on a daily basis, which is the whole reason a moderator is. When people bypass the moderator and run straight to the owner, the owner has knee jerk reactions because he's not seen the entire picture unfold. Sure, you can put a moderator on here, not allow them to post and simply play policeman, but as you've seen toward the beginning of the thread, people don't like not knowing who their dealing with. Does the owner have friends? I'm sure he does. Would he ban or take action against those friends if he had too? Only he can answer that. As for me, Do I have friends? Yes. Would I ban or take action against my friends if necessary? Yes.

Beleive it or not, most email/PM's I get are not from friends, but report a posts, complaints, often being on the receiving end of some rather hostile anger, and the like. I especially love the hateful letters from new people registering that are using a free web based email account and can't figure out why their registration won't go through. If they'd bother to read the line just above where they enter their email address, they'd know. People don't read!

 

[Ross]

Yes and No.
Example:
If you are in MY house and offend ME, it is up to me to either:
1) let it go
2) give a warning
3) boot their butt out the door

+1

Play by the forum/owners rules in his house or your not welcome to be in the house.

 

[Ross]

Im open and want to stay that way. Some things i see on here are not what id like to hear, but if we all agreed , this would be a place i wouldnt want to be. I like hearing differences in opinions. I like to look at it from all sides, and try to make an educated opinion myself. Im learning alot from the long time , and short time users. The way i look at it, you just cant take things personally. This is a wonderful site. But that is just my opinion.

Danny you have to make A LOT of mistakes to get banned around here. The only exception is posting of porn. That's a direct guarantee your gone. We don't just up and ban people. Many warnings are given before hand, so it's not like the offender doesn't know his behavior is less then desirable.

We don't have problems with differences of opinion, but we do have problems with personal attacks, flamming other users and insults which pretty much lead to inciting a riot.

 

[MarkU]

Nothing personal Ross, but in my opinion, I don't think that moderators should actively participate and express their personal opinions in discussion forums.

The lack of objectivity, whether perceived or actual, can make it difficult to enforce forum policy and rules.


Mark

 

[Ross]

Nothing personal Ross, but in my opinion, I don't think that moderators should actively participate and express their personal opinions in discussion forums.

The lack of objectivity, whether perceived or actual, can make it difficult to enforce forum policy and rules.


Mark

Opinion noted. I disagree of course, but it's noted anyhow.

 

[tobagotwo]

Ross, in that paragraph, I was continuing a monologue that was referring to why this wouldn't work for me, my personal psychology, and the way I perceive my own role as a member in the forums. It wasn't meant as a comment on how it works for you or anyone else. I have no particular problem with a moderator posting, as long as it isn't me, and he or she isn't using his/her authority to force opinions.

The forum innately has the rights mentioned in the rules you posted above (which I do vaguely remember seeing some time ago), but the rules appear to be mostly guidelines, only partially specific. The more specific you can be, the less there is for people to argue with you about.

The forum has the right to do anything it wants at any time, but that rarely works well in real life. More usefully, the forum has expressed the right to enforce or bypass enforcement on any infraction of the rules. If someone breaks the rules, their membership and posting capabilities become the whim of the site. The moderator is the lifeguard: he or she decides whether the kids have settled down enough to go back and play in the pool, or they're out for the day - or the season.

As far as between the moderator and the owner, they must work out between themselves how they're going to handle the more raucous issues, preferrably by setting expectations with each other through their own rules of play.

As far as questions, you've already graded answers, so it would be taking shots after the goalie has left...

Best wishes,

 

[Gnusgal]

Personally, I think that a moderator needs to be involved in the community he/she serves. It helps them serve better.

Ross, I would make a terrible moderator. I know this. I hate confrontation (I know you do too) and would have a hard time laying down the law.

In the scenario you presented I would believe a moderator should inform the offending poster that while they may live in America, they are posting in VR Land. They are welcome to share their opinions in a peaceful manner, but as soon as they attack another member, become aggressive, offensive, or are otherwise breaking the "laws" of VR Land, there will be consequences. Just like taking a swing at someone in a bar can earn you a night in jail, so too can a virtual "punch" at someone in our community.

Break our laws, suffer the consequences. It should be that easy. But I know it's not.

 

[Lisa in Katy]

Ok Ross, if I were the owner, here is how I would handle it (as well as demanding payment). I've tried to highlight the major things in red.

I am involved in a forum where the only way to report a post is with the "report" button. You can make a short comment when reporting, maybe 100 characters, which keeps the tirades directed at moderators manageable. The moderators are unknown - may or may not participate, but nobody knows. (Actually, I have served as moderator to fill in while others are out of town, and I have a feeling that the moderators are participants, but it's kept quiet). Nobody can get to the owner or moderators directly. Well, I can get to the owner, but I know her personally outside of the forum and there are others who participate who are also friends. However, I would never abuse my friendship with the owner by trying to control HER forum. We talk about it occasionally, and laugh about some of the wacko posts she gets, but that's it. It often has contentious topics as many of the posts are related to decisions made by the school district. All posts have to be approved before they are posted, so there are rarely flames unless people know how to do it in code language that the moderators don't understand. This has happened occasionally, and when it does, participants click on report, explain the reason, and it gets removed fairly quickly. That's not to say that there's not debate. There is very strong debate on some issues. We don't all agree, ever. That is the purpose of the blog - to debate local, state, and national issues. The healthcare debate was a recent topic. Posts were very similar to most of the ones here, and it was great.

There is one topic called "Talk to the owner" where people can leave random comments or complaints. Nobody except the owner gets to read them unless she decides to share and ask for opinions.

 

[Danny]

I understand what your saying Ross, That is why I could never be a moderator..lol. I do think that this post is clearing things up. At least im understanding where you and others are coming from.

 

[perrypiratesdad]

I'm a moderator on my own forum, and there is no way in hell I want your job Ross.

 

[Ross]

I don't care how specific a rule is written, someone always finds a loop hole, leading to yet another rule. This is why the rules are written the way they are. Short and simple.
This is also why, for the most part, the rules have been loosely applied. Everything gets decided on a case by case basis, because much like the field of work for a Police Officer, each and every situation is different. With every traffic stop, you best be wearing your vest and be ready to draw your weapon, because at the end of the day, you want to go home to your family.

I'd like to know just who is interested in working in this type of environment voluntarily(Warm beer, Bad food, No sex). People duck the questions for the most part, but are providing insight into things, which is very helpful and should give you a basic idea of the overall complexities of this forum.

 

[ChouDoufu]

something we should all keep in mind is that there is no freedom of
speech as such on the interwebs, at least not in the way that some
people feel there "should" be.

i've seen the "censorship is unconstitutional" argument on various
forums, and too many people miss the distinction between some
government agency enforcing a speech code and the owner of a
forum limiting some topics, as well as forgetting the world wide
web would not be subject to the u.s. constitution.

for all the talk of rights and freedom of speech, sometimes we forget
that has to do with limits on government power and potential abuse,
and nothing to do with private citizens. especially not in/on their
private property, which is what a forum in the end is. it may be
open to the public, but someone somewhere owns/runs it. there is
no "right" to freedom of speech here. us regular members are
guests, and as such must defer to the wishes of our host.

 

[Ross]

something we should all keep in mind is that there is no freedom of
speech as such on the interwebs, at least not in the way that some
people feel there "should" be.

i've seen the "censorship is unconstitutional" argument on various
forums, and too many people miss the distinction between some
government agency enforcing a speech code and the owner of a
forum limiting some topics, as well as forgetting the world wide
web would not be subject to the u.s. constitution.

for all the talk of rights and freedom of speech, sometimes we forget
that has to do with limits on government power and potential abuse,
and nothing to do with private citizens. especially not in/on their
private property, which is what a forum in the end is. it may be
open to the public, but someone somewhere owns/runs it. there is
no "right" to freedom of speech here. us regular members are
guests, and as such must defer to the wishes of our host.

Bingo and another +1.

 

[Bridgette]

What about:

Three strikes then you're out.

Any issues should be addressed to the moderator, who will discuss them with the site owner IF he deems it necessary. Do not bypass the moderator and go directly to the owner.

An abusive private or email to the moderator will result in an instant ban - end of story.

 

[Ross]

What about:

Three strikes then you're out.

Any issues should be addressed to the moderator, who will discuss them with the site owner IF he deems it necessary. Do not bypass the moderator and go directly to the owner.

An abusive private or email to the moderator will result in an instant ban - end of story.

That's pretty much how it's done.

Some people feel they have to bypass the mod and go only to the owner.

Provide proof of these PM's or emails sent through the forum and not personal email and yes, if sufficient evidence is presented, banning will occur. I cannot ban on someones word alone, I need proof.

Posting of private messages between admin/mods and individuals is also a banning offense.