Brain Fog? Could it be beta blockers? Anxiety?

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BarbJean

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 16, 2010
Messages
214
Location
We live upstate New York, outside of Albany, in La
Hi friends, I told my son I would post here and ask your opinions on this issue. I know there was a recent thread on heart related dizziness and lightheadedness, but this does not really seem to be the issue with him. For a long time, I would say about 4 years now, he has these periods where he feels like he is in a fog. He has such a hard time explaining it. He feels like he can't focus and then begins to have social anxiety issues because he can't keep up with conversations. He just came home from work and sat here talking to me about it for awhile cause it seems to be back full force. He almost feels like he "disassociates". When he tells the doctors they seem to blow him off cause he appears to be a "with it" guy. He says he is not really nervous about his upcoming surgery, but could this be anxiety on a subconscious level. I just feel so badly for him and don't know what to do for him. I just had him try an antianxiety med to see if it helps. He is going back to his counselor on Thursday. Last year, the counselor felt it was social anxiety. I just wish we knew if it was physical, due to the meds he takes, or psychological. It is chipping away at his confidence and he says he feels so awkward now and self conscious in social situations. Right now he is taking atenolol, losartan and concerta(ADD). Anyone have these feelings?:confused:
 
It might well be the Concerta. I'm afraid I'd be guessing at anything else. This is one time I think a psychologist should really listen or get a new one.
 
I know I'm on Neurontin now and it makes me feel really strange. Don't care for it at all, but Lyrica was causing me to swell like a balloon.
 
Did he have this before he started any of the meds? I know they are finding alot of kids with CHD have a range of learning disabilities. (CHOP does/did alot of the research) they don't know if it is something the kids were born with, or having surgeries as babies/toddlers, or in some cases having low O2 levels the first few years or their lives, but most likely a combonation of all of it. But if it is something new, I would think it would be more related to a med.
I wasn't on any of his eds, but in my 20s I was in and out of the hospital with really bad asthma (that I didn't have growing up) I was on several meds, and something made me feel that really foogy descrption, it almost felt like I wasn't part of the group, but more like off in the distance, looking in. I tried to describe it to Mom, but she didn't understand what I was trying to explain. Years later when she started having bad COPD, she told me one day, she finally understood what i was describing about the fog and not feeling part of it, since her meds made her feel that way. She was on them and had the weird feeling for a while and was thinking something was really wrong with her mind, then one day, she remeberred that conversation and figured it must be a med in her case too. She talked to her docs and they rearranged her meds (I don't know what they took her off and can't ask her since she passed) and she had clearer thinking again.
I agree with Ross, if his doctor won't listen and try to help, get a new one.
 
He is going back to his counselor on Thursday. Last year, the counselor felt it was social anxiety. I just wish we knew if it was physical, due to the meds he takes, or psychological. It is chipping away at his confidence and he says he feels so awkward now and self conscious in social situations. Right now he is taking atenolol, losartan and concerta(ADD). Anyone have these feelings?:confused:[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

Barbjean, I had a heart failure episode in June of 2009 and it took 10 months before I had the 4 tests necessary before I could have the surgery. After surgery, during cardiac rehab. one of the nurses talked to me while I was on the treadmill. It resulted in an appointment with the social worker and a recommendation to see a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. I asked my co-workers if my personality had changed since my heart failure as I haven't noticed anything. They said that it had. I seemed to get distracted or pre-occupied. I signed up for the psychological counselling.

Apparently, heart events can cause psychological changes and problems. As a result the Cardiac Rehab. program has a component for counselling to help patients overcome their problem.

Hope this helps you and your son. He is lucky he has someone to help him through this traumatic time. I had to make these decisions on my own but as an adult at 63 I would expect this to be normal.

BTW, I wouldn't take any medicine, not even over-the-counter cough medicine, without checking with the doctor or at least the druggist. Together with the heart medicine, the other stuff could create more problems and possibly more serious ones.
 
I was first on Atenolol and it really dragged me down. I tried some other beta blockers and found one that I thought I could live with. Your son has not had his surgery yet, has he? You cannot blame his distraction on the surgery yet, can you?
 
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I had to go off the beta blockers (changed to CCB) due to significant "fog" I too felt dissociated, not clear headed and tired... Has he been on these medications beyond the four years he has been feeling this way? Certainly agree that discussing with the counselor/therapist is important to try to tease apart the many different possible causes. Best of luck with everything.
 
Thanks all, you really do have me thinking it could be the beta blocker. Maryka, which one did you change to that did not bother you as much. Pedimed, very interesting that you felt that way too. Colin has been on BB since age 6, same one, atenolol, all that time. He just finished a blind study clinical research trial. He was either to be put on atenolol or losartan, the drug they were studying. They could not tell us which one he was on, but we were 99% sure it was the atenolol. That was for three years. His dosage on the study was 50mg. When he had his last echo in April for the study, we found out about the increased dilatation of the aorta and the possibility of surgery. So, his geneticist in Philly increased his atenolol to 100mg and added 100mg of losartan too. I would think it was the increase in bb, but he did have these problems when he was on the 50mg. His cardio here in Albany told him to reduce the atenolol to 50mg now. He said it would not make a great deal of difference since the surgery is only 4 weeks away. Yet, the geneticist and surgeon said to stay on the 100mg when we saw them. When you see several doctors it makes it so hard to know what to do when they give different advice. Grrrrrrrrr
 
Hi, Barbjean!

When I got off atenolol I went on something called Zebeta. I heard about it from my (now departed) Marfan friend, Patricia, in FL. She stayed on it a couple of years, but quit when her Marfan problems continued to get worse. She moved to another BB, whose name I cannot recall. I stayed on Zebeta for most of the many years before I had heart surgery. Then, of course, all the meds changed. I never went back to Atenolol, however. I shudder when i think of your son being on such a high dose of Atenolol, but that is just MY experience with that drug. I am not sure if they make Zebeta (or whatever its generic version was that came out a couple of years ago). It definitely was not as bad a downer as Atenolol was for me, however!
 
I have not read the responses yet, but one totally un-related issue might be worth looking into, as it is not well-known despite the huge number of people who seem to be affected. Buy or get at library a book titled When The Brain Can't Hear. There are many varieties of what they call central processing disorders, brain-related but not any indication of mental illness or disease process, just a matter of fact that not all of our brains process information the same way. I certainly have noticed that information presented in some ways is more accessible or easier for me to interpret. It is an absolutely fascinating book, and if I recall correctly, some suggestions on how to get checked for these disorders are in the book.

Also please take a look at the absolutely amazing website called Science Daily. Here is a link to the page of info on ADD/ADHD:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/mind_brain/add_and_adhd/
 
p.s. references made to 'counselor' make me wonder about the true credentials or lack of them of that person. If your Son is not seeing a Psychiatrist (who is also an M.D. as psychiatrists must be) then he is in the hands of what I would call a quack. If he is having medication related symptoms, he needs a medical doctor who also can correctly recognize/diagnose any existing mental disorders - which I personally doubt your Son has - not a 'counselor', IMO.

I am not a doctor, but I would seriously be considering that the Concerta is the source of the problems. Here are a few links to info on that, in case you've not already found time to do that kind of research?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate
especially see the contraindications part:
"Methylphenidate should not be prescribed concomitantly with tricyclic antidepressants, such as desipramine, or monoamine oxidase inhibitors, such as phenelzine or tranylcypromine, as methylphenidate may dangerously increase plasma concentrations, leading to potential toxic reactions (mainly, cardiovascular effects). Methylphenidate should not be prescribed to patients who suffer from severe arrhythmia, hypertension or liver damage. It shouldn't be prescribed to patients who demonstrate drug-seeking behaviour, pronounced agitation or nervousness.[35] Care should be taken while prescribing methylphenidate to children with a family history of Paroxysmal Supraventricular Tachycardia (PSVT)."


I have no idea if he already has a tendency toward tachycardia or arrhythmia but in the list of side effects also on that reference, tach is listed. IMO, any drug that can cause or exacerbate cardiac problems should not be given to someone with pre-existing cardiac problems. Who actually prescribed that, the 'counselor' or an MD?

OMG read this too:
http://www.drugs.com/pro/concerta.html especially this part "Warnings and Precautions
Serious Cardiovascular Events
Sudden Death and Pre-existing Structural Cardiac Abnormalities or Other Serious Heart Problems
Children and Adolescents

Sudden death has been reported in association with CNS stimulant treatment at usual doses in children and adolescents with structural cardiac abnormalities or other serious heart problems. Although some serious heart problems alone carry an increased risk of sudden death, stimulant products generally should not be used in children or adolescents with known serious structural cardiac abnormalities, cardiomyopathy, serious heart rhythm abnormalities, or other serious cardiac problems that may place them at increased vulnerability to the sympathomimetic effects of a stimulant drug.

Adults

Sudden deaths, stroke, and myocardial infarction have been reported in adults taking stimulant drugs at usual doses for ADHD. Although the role of stimulants in these adult cases is also unknown, adults have a greater likelihood than children of having serious structural cardiac abnormalities, cardiomyopathy, serious heart rhythm abnormalities, coronary artery disease, or other serious cardiac problems. Adults with such abnormalities should also generally not be treated with stimulant drugs.

Hypertension and other Cardiovascular Conditions

Stimulant medications cause a modest increase in average blood pressure (about 2 to 4 mmHg) and average heart rate (about 3 to 6 bpm) [see Adverse Reactions (6.5)], and individuals may have larger increases. While the mean changes alone would not be expected to have short-term consequences, all patients should be monitored for larger changes in heart rate and blood pressure. Caution is indicated in treating patients whose underlying medical conditions might be compromised by increases in blood pressure or heart rate, e.g., those with pre-existing hypertension, heart failure, recent myocardial infarction, or ventricular arrhythmia.

Assessing Cardiovascular Status in Patients being Treated with Stimulant Medications

Children, adolescents, or adults who are being considered for treatment with stimulant medications, should have a careful history (including assessment for a family history of sudden death or ventricular arrhythmia) and physical exam to assess for the presence of cardiac disease, and should receive further cardiac evaluation if findings suggest such disease (e.g., electrocardiogram and echocardiogram). Patients who develop symptoms such as exertional chest pain, unexplained syncope, or other symptoms suggestive of cardiac disease during stimulant treatment should undergo a prompt cardiac evaluation."
Read more at: http://www.drugs.com/pro/concerta.html#ixzz0r9XhcqHl
 
Jeanie, Thanks so much for all of your info. I am going to go through it all now. I am actually becoming overwhelmed myself with some of this medical stuff. I feel like we have just seen so many doctors lately that my head is spinning. I might even have brain fog myself. :) That book sounds really interesting and I will look it up on Amazon. The counselor he sees is a social worker that he really made a connection with. I know he can't really deal with meds issues. He is pretty much an antimed guy. The counseling he does is cognitive behavior therapy and it has seemed to help Colin in the past. He saw him this morning, and he feels a bit better about things today. There is a psychiatric nurse we see for the ADD meds, but sometimes I feel she is too drug happy. After looking at the info on the Concerta, I told Colin to lay off taking it for awhile. His geneticist and local cardiologist know he takes it and never said anything to me about it. He has never had any arrhythmia problems, but it still makes me nervous. Again, thanks for all the info. Barb
 
I was on nadolol for six months until I no longer could stand the side effects. I took double honors calculus in college, so I knew that something was wrong when I could not calculate a safe dose range on a narcotic that I was preparing to give a patient. The next day I was so tired I could not get out of bed. I was changed to atenolol and then I was fine. There is some hope that I may be able to get off some of the meds in a year.

Debbie
 
I dont know if this has been discussed elsewhere on this forum but according to Dr. Elefteraides, the drugs used to slow down aortic growth are largely unproven in terms of changing the natural history of the disease in most people. This is not to say they should not be used; their utility is in preventing BP spikes that can accelerate or cause an abrupt catastrophic event while waiting for the earliest surgical decision point. BBs do cause depression or brain fog as they interact with the CNS. Barb I am surprised they gave your son a rather high dose of BBs at such a young age. We still do not know the exact mechanism(s) by which BBs act and all the things that they do as yet, other than a general mechanism. They are largely safe but do kind of slow you down quite a bit. Severe asthma is the only contraindication. Another gray area for us all...
 
i have to tell you. i was put on the metoprolol in decemeber. ever since then, i don't feel "all there"....i dont know how to explain it. then after my surgery, they doubled my dose and it made me feel even worse. i am so happy that today they told me i could stop it cold turkey. i hope it will make me feel much better! i hope your son will figure it out too!
 
I hope I did not alarm you unnecessarily BJ, but on the other hand I hope I may have provided some ideas to consider. I am glad you gave more info on the counselor, and since you and your Son are noticing improvements, please ignore my negative comments.

I just thought of 2 other medical issues that can cause brain fog...fluctuations in blood sugar, and/or transient hypoxia if there is an occasional insufficient blood flow to the brain.
 
I am glad you got the OK to get off of the Metoprolol. I was told (and also found corroboration in online search) that Metoprolol is best discontinued in a tapering fashion over a few days. There is apparently a slight danger of a rebound tachycardia (fast heart rate) that an abrupt stopping of the drug can cause. When I got off of it I tapered off and had no problems.
 
My Cardiologist is a believer in determining the Minimum Medication Dose that provides adequate 'control' of whatever needs to be controlled. When I was on a Beta Blocker and complained about feeling 'dragged out', he had me cut the dose in Half for 2 weeks. I felt Much Better and was still 'under control'. He then had me cut that dose in half for another 2 weeks. Not much change. Finally he had me Stop using the drug. Symptoms returned in less than 2 weeks. Back to the Last Dose (1/4 of the original), control returned, and my energy level was good.

Another Cardio had told me that my original dose was the Minimum Theraputic Dose.
Sometimes you just have to find a Doctor who will work with you.
 
Hi.
I was on Atenolol for some time and had all of the symptoms that you are describing (still do to an extent). They were no fun to say the least. However, it sounds like your son really has Marfan syndrome, so these may be a necessity for him. I like to take the big picture approach to this stuff whenever a med or surgery interferes with my life and write it off as a cost of doing business. I'd love to play basketball and football again, but Coumadin prevents that. I'm thankful for what I have and move on. I'm also 37 and would not have been as accepting of that answer when I was 24. I would bet the beta blockers are the cause here though.
 

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