Everything Happens for a Reason -

[Christina L]

remember that conversation we had here on VR.com? Below is an E-mail that I have received before but every time I read it, it reminds me why I believe there IS an order to the universe, there is somebody/something "behind the scenes" and everything does happen for a reason.

If after reading below you think otherwise (that there is not an order to life), share your thoughts.

-----------------------
History mystery

Have a history teacher explain this----- if they can.

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.
Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.
Both Presidents were shot in the head.

Now it gets really weird.

Lincoln 's secretary was named Kennedy.
Kennedy's Secretary was named Lincoln .

Both were assassinated by Southerners.
Both were succeeded by Southerners named Johnson.

Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln , was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln , was born in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939.

Both assassins were known by their three names.
Both names are composed of fifteen letters.

Now hang on to your seat.

Lincoln was shot at the theater named 'Ford.'
Kennedy was shot in a car called ' Lincoln ' made by 'Ford.'

Lincoln was shot in a theater and his assassin ran and hid in a
warehouse.
Kennedy was shot from a warehouse and his assassin ran and hid in a
theater.

Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.

And here's the kicker...

A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe , Maryland
A week before Kennedy was shot, he was with Marilyn Monroe.

 

[Ross]

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/linckenn.htm

 

[Christina L]

I still say there are a lot

I still say there are a lot

of similarities between the two. Guess I do want to believe that there is order to the world, and I truly believe there is. Call me naive or do I dare say, a believer in God??? In today's world, to be a "believer" is becoming a mortal sin.

Thanks for posting, Ross, but I don't think this is an urban legend by any means - too many things that are alike between the two that are not just chance.

Christina L

 

[Ross]

I too have some of those same feelings about certain things. I brought this back because whether truth of fiction, it makes you stop and think about thing.

 

[MelissaM]

My whole beef about the "everything happens for a reason" line is that so often people are confusing cause and effect. It is both a grammatical objection, as well as a philosophical one.

For example, the REASON why leaves are green is chlorophyll. The chlorophyll CAUSES the leaf to be green. Or, put another way, the EFFECT of the chlorophyll is to turn the leaf green

But, people often say things "everything happens for a reason" when things are COINCIDENCES or EFFECTS, not CAUSES. For example, some might cite their new-found appreciation of life as the REASON they had their near death experience. I would argue that their new-found appreciation is the EFFECT of their near-death experience, not the REASON for it.

Or, if you bump into someone at a train station, then end up marrying that person, that is a COINCIDENCE. I would argue that that person was not put there for a reason, he or she just happened to be there, and you happened to fall in love, and the EFFECT was that you got married.

Before you all go about berating me, I know the above is totally logic-based and not romantic at all, and much of it is a matter of semantics. It just happens to be my opinion. A lot of people take comfort in the thought that "everything happens for a reason," and to them I say, more power to you. Do what brings you comfort and joy.

But don't be alarmed if I bristle at the phrase. .. .

 

[Dennis S]

Logical?

Logical?

Or, if you bump into someone at a train station, then end up marrying that person, that is a COINCIDENCE. I would argue that that person was not put there for a reason, he or she just happened to be there, and you happened to fall in love, and the EFFECT was that you got married.

I don't think this is a helpful response, and please let me explain. Melissa will never be convinced the stranger at the train station was "put there for a reason". This is because she rejects the possibility that there is a higher/greater force that effects our lives. (Or at least rejects the possibility that we could know this). It is not possible to have a productive argument where each party rejects the essential premise of the other, and there is no way to prove either premise true. I don't think these things are in the realm of "argument", and there is no real way to go forward with the discussion. In this case, I see no reason to "bristle" about which view another holds.

 

[Christina L]

Dennis -

Dennis -

I don't think anyone is bristling or arguing - I was more so at the web site that Ross posted as if you read the guys arguments on why there are no similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy, it is just ridiculous. There are a LOT of similarities. Again, I am not upset with Ross, just this guy (probably an atheist) poo-pooing that the two assassinations were dissimilar.

As for Melissa, well that gal is Sooooooo smart!!! I have always been in awe of Melissa and love to hear her take on things. Melissa is an "old soul."

However, I believe that cause-effect is the SAME as a divine order, just different wording.

Christina L

 

[Dennis S]

What I mean by argument:

What I mean by argument:

I would like to take another crack at what I meant to say.

To me, the ability to form and express an argument is one of the most uniquely human activities. Great legal documents, such as our constitution, were formed as the result of arguments back and forth between great minds. The decision that each state, no matter its size, should have two senators, was the result of arguments formed, expressed, and eventually adopted.

We all have various beliefs. Many of these beliefs are based on evidence. I take warfarin on a daily basis because I believe it reduces my odds of having a stroke. I can have a productive argument with someone concerning this belief, because that particular belief is based on statistical evidence that the very great majority of us accept as persuasive.

Like you, I believe that things ?happen for a reason?. In that very important sense I agree with your statement that ?things happen for a reason?. But I don?t think I can support this with statistical evidence. For this reason, I don?t find it very productive to use that type of evidence to try to prove that ?things happen for a reason?.

It is dangerous to try to speak for another, but I think a part of Melissa?s point is that a string of unusual events does not prove that ?things happen for a reason?. I agree with her in that regard. I happen to be typing this response on an Apple G4 computer at 7:28 mountain time in front of a fire, having just let three dogs outside. The odds that all of these things would happen at the same time are perhaps a million to one-but I don?t think it proves anything. Depending on how closely you look, everything that happens is a million to one long shot.

Melissa uses the words berate & bristle in her post. I understand completely why she did that. It is very possible some will berate her, and she has warned us that she might bristle. I hope neither of these things happen. I think this is just one of those areas where reasonable (and very intelligent) minds will differ.

 

[Christina L]

Dennis -

Dennis -

I guess another way to explain MY point of view is that everything that happens on this planet is known to God and it WILL happen. I don't necessarily even believe that God has a hand in changing things (good or bad). I pray for strength, but don't believe that God intervenes - that would mean He/She plays favorites and I don't believe that way any more. However, I do believe that ALL that has happened in my life has happened the way it was supposed to.

During this discussion, I have thought of the Bible verse that says a person should have the faith of a little child. That is really all it takes and HAS to take to believe in God and a divine order BUT saying there is no evidence - even science will tell you that there is a definite order to nature and life on this planet. An extreme order!

I respect Melissa's opinion on most things, but I don't necessarily agree with her all the time! And she knows that!! BTW, Melissa, Wayne and I may come to Boulder this weekend to Christmas shop. Wanna meet us at Flatirons for lunch? E-mail me privately.

Christina L

 

[MelissaM]

Dennis - voila! You've hit the nail on the head - ultimately, this is one of those unprovable arguments. But, I DO love to debate it. And. . .since Chris put the bait out there (she and I have actually discussed this before), I felt compelled to respond.

Luckily, Chris and I know each other well enough to know we can respectfully disagree. The berate and bristle comments were more for those whom I don't know so well, and might have thought I was somehow attacking thier belief system. Which I try not to do. Ever.

So, for those who like to debate, we can debate, but as you so wisely pointed out, ultimately, it will remain unproveable (which, IMHO, makes the debate that much more fun ).

And Chris, yes, let's meet up. I will email you shortly!

 

[Susan BAV]

Or, might it be this way...?

Or, might it be this way...?

Let me toss this in to the thread - Ecclesiastes 9:11:

"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all." King James Version; or,

"Again I looked throughout the earth and saw that the swiftest person does not always win the race, nor the strongest man the battle, and that wise men are often poor, and skillful men are not necessarily famous; but it is all by chance, by happening to be at the right place at the right time." The Living Bible - Paraphrased

 

[Dennis S]

Context:

Context:

I will not go any farther down this road than to say this-These verses come from a very complex and rich context. I think they need to be read within that context in order to be helpful.

 

[Susan BAV]

I will not go any farther down this road than to say this-These verses come from a very complex and rich context. I think they need to be read within that context in order to be helpful.

"...in order to be helpful..."

Could that opinion be
the cause or the effect?

BTW - It's not so complex.

 

[Christina L]

In as much as there are many

In as much as there are many

Bible verses written by men (Ecclesiastes written by King Solomon) talk at length about the meaningless of life and the chance of life, the words of Jesus talk about the "hairs on your head being counted" and "not a sparrow falls to the ground without the Father knowing." Anyway...I am no Bible scholar by any means and cannot quote scripture, let alone know where the verses are!!! However, Dennis you are right - the writings of the Bible are full of allegory and the writings by Paul and Solomon, etc., are written by mortal men searching for God.

Life is not a game of chance or with lack of meaning or order - God knows our future - we don't of course - but we need to rest in the peace that "all will work together for good..."

Christina L

 

[Christina L]

Okay Ross, I get the

Okay Ross, I get the

message. No more talk of religion or politics. However, I DID take my (this) thread off as soon as the topic was shot down by you and you put the thread back on to promote discussion!!! Remember??!

This is a no win debate - everyone believes very differently and that is A-okay - it's what makes the world go around.

Christina L

 

[Ross]

Hey, I'm just trying to get people to lighten up and have some fun. We haven't had any fun around since??????????? Sex is usually a good starting point. Plus I don't like to see anyone deleting their threads for fear of not going with main stream. Everyone has an opinion.

 

[Old clicker]

I don't think anyone is bristling or arguing - I was more so at the web site that Ross posted as if you read the guys arguments on why there are no similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy, it is just ridiculous. There are a LOT of similarities. Again, I am not upset with Ross, just this guy (probably an atheist) poo-pooing that the two assassinations were dissimilar.

As for Melissa, well that gal is Sooooooo smart!!! I have always been in awe of Melissa and love to hear her take on things. Melissa is an "old soul."

However, I believe that cause-effect is the SAME as a divine order, just different wording.

Christina L

Just wondering why this guy is probably an Atheist?

 

[Christina L]

Old Clicker -

Old Clicker -

I know that was probably too strong a statement and really doesn't make any sense that the guy is probably an atheist - however, I guess I was thinking along the lines that most atheists do not think there is an order to life and think that ALL of life is chance and folly - so this guy was poo-pooing the relationship to Lincoln and Kennedy all around (when really there are a lot of similarities) - he just sounds angry and oh so cynical (like most atheists I have heard of) - don't know any personally thank goodness!!

Just MY opinion!

Christina L

 

[Dennis S]

Good move:

Good move:

Dear Christina-one of my favorite people-I think you heard the thin ice cracking and got off that atheist thing in the nick of time.

 

[Christina L]

Yes, Dennis, I did

Yes, Dennis, I did

hear the ice cracking - and the sound of it was echoing off the mountain peaks.

I wear my heart on my sleeve don't I? Sorry for being so tactless at times.

Christina L