Confused about valve choice

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I had a decision to make too,I was 70 when I had my surgery,chose the On X valve (Mitral) position.Didnt want any more surgerys.My INR is stable, 2.3 last check,Now only have to go every month,Surgeon wanted it to be 2.0-3.00 range.Will go to home checks after the first of the year.Very pleased with my decision.Had surgery on a Monday was sent home on Saturday.Good luck to you.
 
My consultation is on Wednesday. In reading over all the replys I am still not sure as to my selection. I've read the pros and cons from people here on this forum for each type of valve. I guess the one thing that I haven't heard much of is the fear or anxiety of having to have another OHS somewhere down the line. If you have had a tissue valve replacement I would like to hear how you are handling that fear, if any.

For those of you on coumadin, i'm reading that it is not a big deal and it has been no problem keeping your blood levels correct.

Thanks again,
Mark
 
I have had two OHS so certainly have no disillusions about what it entails. All my docs have indicated they think this valve should last me in the range of 17-20 years but, of course, there are no guarantees. My surgeon was absolutely definite in his belief that many (most) valve replacements will be done percutaneously and routinely in the very near future. They are already being done in some cases where patient is too ill for traditional OHS. I believe he knows about what he speaks as Mass General is among the hospitals/research centers working on transcath replacements. He had to have known what they are learning.

I do not fear a third surgery if it is necessary. The chances are high in my favor IMO. I am otherwise healthy in all ways. Yes, that can change in the blink of an eye.

With all going on in the world right now, there are other things I worry more about than needing more valve surgery. I did not want to be on coumadin, I did not want a ticking valve and a few other factors re: my choice made it a black and white choice for ME. Certainly I understand that is hardly the case for most people here. I more wanted tissue valve than wanted to avoid possibility (small or large as that possibility might be) of a third surgery. Also, do not forget there is always the chance of necessary re-op with mechanical. As there is also the chance of needing coumadin with tissue valve. This is why most struggle making their choice. It isn't easy for most of us.

And that is the truth. :)
 
My surgeon suggested mechanical even with me having a bleeding duodenal ulcer a year earlier. He said he didn't especially like my bleeding ulcer history but also said if I was lucky I might get 10 or 15 years out of a pig valve. So it was an easy choice for I was a young 56. And planned on living a lot longer than 15 years. Later after having valve surgery with major complications I knew we had made the right choice for I would never want to go through those 20 days again.

As far as taking blood anti-coagulates, that is no big deal! But it does scare some doctors and people. My wife had taken coumadin for a year and it was no problem for her so I already knew about coumadin.

The first few years I could hear my valve but didn't bother me. Now days I seldom hear that wonderful ticking.

Good luck with your choice.
 
As I was rereading all of these posts, I was reminded again of how a lot of heart surgery advancements have been made in recent years and how rapidly the surgery and expertise improves, so what the doctors said or reccomend twenty years or even 10 years ago were correct at the time, the way things have changed since then, mainly surgery risks and after care, ect. (even valves and coumadin management) it could be outdated.
I know from Justin having heart surgeries in 88,89, 98, 2005 and 2007 how much things HAVE improved. Just between 88 and 98 we were shocked at how much better things were. Surgeries that most kids were in the hospital for at LEAST a month in the late 80s early 90s (Justin was in 5 weeks for his first OHS and in and out with complications for 6 MONTHS with his 2nd) they were home in a week or less by 1998 (he was home in less than a week). There ARE still people that don't do well, or even survive, but the majority do much better. We actually had a few discusions with different surgeons and cardiologists, (usually late at night when I couldn't sleep) about how much things have changed for OHS in the last 20 years, as they got more experience dealing with all the issues that can come up, scarring, fluid and the best way to take care of it and of course better technology both in the OR and after care. Even the most complex cases today for the most part have less complications, risks, recovery than "easier" surgeries when we started. Surgery is still risky and you can still have bad complications, (which we know all to well, since Justin tends to have complications) but the morbidity /mortality is much better, even for multiple REDOs. Just like coumadin still has risks for bleeds or strokes, but with proper management the morbidity /mortality is better, even IF you have a problem. The really good thing is both choices are pretty good and chances are great you will live a long happy life no matter which choice you rather live with.
 
For those of you on coumadin, i'm reading that it is not a big deal and it has been no problem keeping your blood levels correct.

Thanks again,
Mark

Mark, if you get a knowledgeable manager or home test, Coumadin is not a big deal. I will say this, there are far more managers that do NOT know what they're doing then those that do. You pretty much have to find someone that home tests and self doses to help teach you what to watch out for. It's not hard, it's just that too many medical professionals are not on the same page. Once they all get a clue, we should be fine, but I don't see it happening in my lifetime.
 
As heart patients valve choice is about the only decision we have.When my cardio told me I needed a new valve ( in fact told while I was still on the table after completion of my heart cath) this forum helped educate me as to choices.If tissue I had chosen Carp.-Edwards bovine. And if Mech. it would have been On-x.My only pleasant surprise was when the surgeon said he could save my valve and replace my aorta with a dacron tube.My back-up choice if he could not save the valve was tissue.The Dr. was the 1st in the u.s. to implant a valve transcather.He said if I needed a new valve down the road he was total convinced transcather would be available. Some people talk this down and think if at all it will be many,many years away.I think there is enough data to show it will be a real option in the not to distant future.My understanding (correct me if I am wrong) transcather method will not work if you have a mech. valve.In the end it is your decision and as they say "any valve is better than the one you have" Best of luck.
 
As I was rereading all of these posts, I was reminded again of how a lot of heart surgery advancements have been made in recent years and how rapidly the surgery and expertise improves, so what the doctors said or reccomend twenty years or even 10 years ago were correct at the time, the way things have changed since then, mainly surgery risks and after care, ect. (even valves and coumadin management) it could be outdated.
I know from Justin having heart surgeries in 88,89, 98, 2005 and 2007 how much things HAVE improved. Just between 88 and 98 we were shocked at how much better things were. Surgeries that most kids were in the hospital for at LEAST a month in the late 80s early 90s (Justin was in 5 weeks for his first OHS and in and out with complications for 6 MONTHS with his 2nd) they were home in a week or less by 1998 (he was home in less than a week). There ARE still people that don't do well, or even survive, but the majority do much better. We actually had a few discusions with different surgeons and cardiologists, (usually late at night when I couldn't sleep) about how much things have changed for OHS in the last 20 years, as they got more experience dealing with all the issues that can come up, scarring, fluid and the best way to take care of it and of course better technology both in the OR and after care.

Lyn, I'm not saying there has not been much improvement. But in 1991 at the Texas Heart Institute, patients 20 years older than me were going home within 5 days after having routine AVR. My case was rare, even way back then.
 
OK Tomorrow morning I meet with the surgeon. I hope to have a clearer idea after talking to him. The main concerns are I do not want to be on blood thinners (However that is like saying you do not like a certain food that you never even tried!) And without knowledge of what the surgury will be like, I really do not want to have another 8-15 years down the road.

Maybe I should flip a coin.

Maybe tell the surgeon to surprise me and tell me when I wake up, if I do.
 
We have been saying that reops are higher risk than initial operations for a long time. However, it was based on information from studies done at the time of Bjork-Shiley mechanical valves, untreated tissue valves, and surgical techniques from three decades ago. Even at that time, people in their 50s and above with tissue valves had equal survival rates and longevity with those who chose mechanical valves. This was largely due to the risk or blood clots and internal bleeding posed by warfarin (Coumadin) use with mechanical valves vs. the rigors of reoperation inherent with tissue valve use.

A more current study shows the case to be much different now. It shows that current reops have more temporary complications, but actually have a better survival rate than intitial operations: http://www.pccvs.com/files/documents/articles/redoavrarticle.pdf . This is the type of results that have encouraged major players like the Cleveland Clinic Foundation to move to greater use of tissue valves in younger patients over the last few years

New generation treated tissue valves are lasting longer than they did in the last century, which also helps to limit reoperations. On the mechanical front, home testing is making Coumadin ACT (anticoagulation therapy) safer. So, everyone gets to live longer.

Best wishes,
 
Bill and Lynlw: I tried reading the artcles you suggested but really had a hard time sifting throufg the numbers. I will print them off and try again.

Mark
Yes, that's true with all medical studies. But if you read the summary or conclusion you will get the point: co-morbidity (other significant dieases beside the valve diease that can shorten life expectancy) is the main factor affecting survival after valve surgery and should be the main factor (outside of some contraindication to warfarin) in choice of valve type. The only fly in this ointment is that this is historical data and does not take into account advances that are possible that could shift the outcome. I decided not to bet on advances that are not here. I like Bob's point that reop risk may have come down below initial op. I had that paper but did not get to carefully analyze it before surgery. [EDIT: I just read the paper and I will comment in another post] Plus my aorta problem was best served with a type of graft that worked best with a mechancial valve. Anyway, it's important to take whatever information you get here for careful review with your surgical team.
 
Lyn: I'm still shy on details. When I saw Miller after surgery he said that the procedure on my aorta would have to have been different had I chosen a tissue valve and not what he would recommend. In fact, I think he was planning on defering the aorta repair had I chosen tissue, but he saw he could not once he saw the condition of the tissue. I'm sorry I can't explain it yet. I see him in 4-5 weeks and that is one thing I want to understand. I was just so glad that things went well and he was there to see me at 10 o'clock at night that I wasn't interested in drawing out details.
 
choice

choice

I am not an MD but was diagnosed with aortic valve regurgitation and dilation of the aorta last year at age 38. I was told I'd need surgery within 5 years but that it could be sooner or later. I was very scared from the beginning and did tons of research until I calmed down and decided I would decide once I need the surgery. The ON-X mechanical valve may have proven to be a better mechanical valve by then or the tissue valves may improve also.

The reason I think one gets confused and the reason many label this as a personal choice is because there is no overwhelming or convincing set of data that push MDs to one conclusion, other than the need for an operation. As I see it, the decision involves trade-offs.

Myself: In your shoes, I would for sure go tissue. Its not that Coumadin is so dangerous; its that I would rather have the risk of a second surgery rather than a risk at a time that I do not prepare for (for instance, blood clot or hemorrage). That is because while I think I shall have access to good surgeons if I plan for it; I live somewhere where the average emergency room is ill equipped. So for me, even if I require surgery at 43, I may still choose tissue. Having said that, I will make the decision when I have to and understand neither choice is great but either beats the alternative. Think of all the people who lived before our time, say 70 years ago and before that...none of them had the possibility to extend their lives that we have. We are quite lucky to be born in an era where our condition is treatable.

Best of luck with your decision.

Rick
 
Bob sites a paper above that argues that re-operation is safer than initial operation and further argues that therefore people should choose tissue valves.
http://www.pccvs.com/files/documents/articles/redoavrarticle.pdf

Unfortunately this paper is just another example of the worst form of "research" in the medical literature. The flaws include:

Retrospective design: That means there was not a structured trial to examine if there really was a difference. The study was not planned and then executed so that confounding factors could be controlled. It was executed then an analysis was made to try to somehow deal with confounding factors that definitely did occur. Now, retrospective analysis can be acceptable if there is rigorous attention to other details, but there wasn't any such attention as I enumerate below.

No patient selection criteria: They took all comers and eliminated no one. This made the spread of risk factors huge and unbalanced, some favoring the initial group, some favoring the re-op groups. There was no attempt to match the groups for risk factors. This makes for a complete mess. They tried to do a multivariate analysis but I think that was inadequate considering the mess they started with.

Temporal Effects were not controlled: There was no information about when the operations were done. The reops may have benefited from advances in surgical technique, changes in hospital practices and improvements in supportive care. Yes, things usually get better with time. So, that should favor initial as well as reops, if they were done at the same time.

The results were not statistically significant: In other words, they could not show that the difference between 4.1 % and 3.1% was any thing other than chance. The P value was 0.89. That means there was an 11% chance that this difference is "real". Now, that, in fact, is not the right way to interpret P values, but it is sufficient to say they did not find a difference. A repeat of this at another institution would just as likely show opposite results.

There are many other flaws, but this study is essentially useless.

Now, this doesn't mean that the basic premise of the paper is not true, or that op + reop is not more dangerous than op + coag, but this paper does almost nothing in my mind to support that claim. I think that these questions have more complex answers.

My basic position is that most of us here are not in a position to evaluate the medical literature and draw our own conclusions. Even with my years of training and experience doing so, I am reluctant to suggest others do this. Those who suggest you can gather a bit of "information" here and direct your own care need to reconsider this. Some of what I have read as information here is flat wrong. For example, the notion that exercise increases warfarin metabolism was floated as fact, and the reference cited for this was an early post made here. That is called circular referencing. There is no evidence at all and considerable reason to expect this is not true from basic information about how warfarin is absorbed and metabolized. Ask the medical staff managing your warfarin therapy.

So, read all you want here, then run the information by the health professionals you expect to provide your care and rely on their feedback. I spent more than a month trying to come to my own conclusion about how my AVR should be done, and I had many conversations about information I read here with my surgeon and his team. I never made my own conclusions without the concurrence of the surgical team, and I was very concerned that anything I read here or elsewhere that was counter to their thinking was given a thorough airing with them.
 
lol - I knew I liked you, Bill. Nice analysis.

I had already decided that even though I have an idea what I will prefer when the time comes, I won't make up my mind on valve until after I talk to one or two surgeons. (And I'll hold out some hope that it can be repaired!)
 
Bob sites a paper above that argues that re-operation is safer than initial operation and further argues that therefore people should choose tissue valves.


Interesting post. I would say, having read both the paper and Tobagotwo's reply, that neither one advocates tissue as a better choice. The paper uses the word consider in connection with valve choice, and Tobagotwo has consistently stressed that valve choice is a decision to be made by each individual and according to their own circumstances.
 
. . . Some of what I have read as information here is flat wrong. For example, the notion that exercise increases warfarin metabolism was floated as fact, and the reference cited for this was an early post made here. That is called circular referencing. There is no evidence at all and considerable reason to expect this is not true from basic information about how warfarin is absorbed and metabolized. Ask the medical staff managing your warfarin therapy. . .

I found this reference (from the US National Library of Medicine) which, while unfortunately using some archaic terminology like "thinning" the blood, seems to support the possible [increased exercise/increased ACT] metabolism issue that several members here have described as personally experiencing: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/tutorials/coumadinintroduction/ct059102.pdf
 
I don't agree with the analysis of the study.

There are many retrospective studies that give excellent and useful data. Part of their usefulness is that they advantage themselves of a variety of groups, a larger cohort (number of patients), and provide a diversity of experience that small studies can't provide. They can bring an overall picture to a fragmented field of interest.

Had they tailored the study and removed patients for comorbid conditions or other criteria, then there would be concern that they were picking and choosing patients that fit some predetermined end. The fact that they did not is obvious, given the number of complications (like kidney failure) that are included in the reop tallies. It's the variety that makes it a useful study, along with the over 1,200 patient cohort. 12 patients can easily have an unintended bias: 1,200, not so much.

If you are looking for a specific group, then a smaller study geared to a very particular set of circumstances may make sense. If you want to know the raw odds of something, then you can take all comers (lots of them), and don't manipulate the input. Raw data does look like a mess. The world is messy.

The operations all took place between 1994 and 2002, per the study. That speaks directly to the time element and the state of OHS technology in the study period.

They don't indicate how long after the initial surgery each second surgery took place. By nature, it would be different for each patient. But we do know that in all cases it was within eight years. Having them split by event year might have provided an extra chart to look at, but doesn't obviate either the data that's there or the outcome.

It is salient that in all cases, the reop was after the original OHS, and the reop patients were always older when they had the reop. Age is a hallowed factor in the success of treating most health issues, and is given as the fifth position predictive factor for mortality in this study.

A person can choose to say the study didn't find a difference, because they choose to interpret it in the most severe negative, which is unlikely to be the case statistically. However, if we were to accept it at its most negative (that they didn't find a difference), it would still bear interest, as it has always been said that reops were significantly worse for survival than original operations. It appears they aren't.

Note that most people looking at valve surgery consider 1% mortality to be significant.

This is not intended to cause a valve choice. The link was posted to provide access to information that bears relevance to those on the site.

Best wishes,
 
Bob:

I have the utmost respect for you. I should have included that above. You know I do, but I want to make that clear in case anyone thought otherwise. I may have mis-represented or misunderstood the claims by the authors a bit, but I still maintain this study was one of the worst put together pieces of crap I have ever read. I should have spent more than the 10 minutes I did reading it to get everything straight, but I was so disgusted I had to stop. Unfortunately this is a prime example that supports the statement that 90% of the "studies" in the medical literature are not worth the paper they are printed on. This one should NEVER have been accepted for publication. It meets NONE of the study design or analysis criteria for publication in a more respected journal, like the NEJM or and of the mainstream cardiothoracic journals. I have seen worse, where there was outright misrepresentation of data, flagrant attempts to distort simple graphs so the differences appear more substantial, etc., but this study fails in so many ways it is utterly laughable. I don't think we need to debate it anymore, but feel free to have the last word.
 
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