Coagucheck vs InRatio

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Pem:
First, I was referring to the statement that said (I'm paraphrasing) that you can't test if you're using Heparin. This, to me, sounded like it wasn't excluding Lovenox.

protimenow,
Thanks for clarifying - I realized what you meant after I posted. Sometimes I'm a bit slow to connect the dots :)

I received some materials (5 tech documents) from Alere on Friday. I've skimmed them, and will probably do a deeper dive on Monday. At first glance, the information I'm seeking isn't present. And I've now added to my list (thanks to you) the goal of deconflicting the guidance with respect to Heparin vs Lovenox.

Regards,
pem
 
By using common sense, I have gone 37+ years with NO problem.....nuff said.

This thread between you and protimenow reminds me of one of my favorite quotes (I wish I could remember the proper attribution) regarding the difference between Theory and Practice: "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Might be Yogi Berra :)

Best,
pem
 
This thread between you and protimenow reminds me of one of my favorite quotes (I wish I could remember the proper attribution) regarding the difference between Theory and Practice: "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Might be Yogi Berra :)

Sounds like Yogi. (In theory)
 
I think Protimenow has an interesting point here.

According to the Nyquist sampling theorem in digital communications, you must sample a signal at least twice as high as the most frequently changing component to be able to reconstruct the original signal. To INR monitoring, this could mean that if fluctuations occur, let's say, over a 4 day period, you would need to test at least every two days if you want to catch every possible fluctuation in your INR time history. Testing more often than 2 days would not gain any more information.

However, in support of less frequent testing, if you notice that your INRs are stable over a long period of time (with a steady dose of Warfarin), it is most likely that the points in-between are also stable. Fluctuations in the small time intervals will also lead to fluctuations at the long intervals because of the principle of "aliasing" whenever you sample a "signal" (INR over time).

I realize however, that this only works if everything you do that affects INR is regulated on a periodic schedule. Throw in an event that doesn't regularly occur, and it falls apart (which is often the way life is!).

Pardon the geeky analysis, but when I start home testing, I think I will lean on the side of more frequent testing so I can analyze the data to look for patterns.
 
I realize however, that this only works if everything you do that affects INR is regulated on a periodic schedule. Throw in an event that doesn't regularly occur, and it falls apart (which is often the way life is!).

Interesting analysis. I think this latter point of yours cannot be overstated, though. The theorem you describe applies to resolving a *signal* as opposed to random fluctuations ("noise"). For example, if someone who tested monthly ate a half pound of frozen spinach the day after each test, we can assume their INR would spike and this would never get measured. But in practice, circumstances like this do not tend to occur (if you were really concerned about INR spikes with regular periodicity, instead of increasing your sampling frequency you could just sample at random intervals).

For practical purposes (assuming that people aren't "gaming" the results by eating spinach after each test), if someone demonstrated an INR that stayed within a certain range over 120 monthly tests (10 years), we could say with very high probability that their INR stays in a similar range the rest of the time. If I have time, I'll work out the statistics and post them. But I think this speaks directly to the question of "if one observes a stable INR with monthly testing, how does one know his INR is stable the rest of the time?"

Best,
pem
 
This discussion has certainly morphed from Coaguchek XS versus InRatio. I was thinking of starting a new thread that focused on the issue of how often you test or how often SHOULD you test.

I once thought that, if your infrequent testing yielded results that were roughly the same each time, that your INR is stable, and the need for frequent testing was minimal.

After more frequent testing, I found that this probably wasn't the case. Sure, I was lucky (or unlucky) enough to have what appeared to be a stable INR. When I looked more closely, and did testing more frequently, I saw that this wasn't the case. For example, it is recommended that dosing be based on weekly dose -- adjustments should be made to the weekly total, with daily dosing being as close to 1/7 of this as possible. For a while, I was taking a dose that required different dosing on alternating days. I found that my INR depended on which day I tested it -- and the differences were almost certainly related to the number of days after a particular dose. The difference from day to day wasn't more than a few tenths of a point, but those few tenths of a point could put you above or below range, depending on the value.

During the past few years, while trying to keep most things fairly consistent, my dosing has ranged from 56 mg/week down to 42 mg/week. Had I stayed at one dose or the other, and didn't test, it's conceivable that my INR would have gone out of range. Monthly testing may not have revealed the changes my body made in metabolizing the warfarin.

I was consistent for many weeks, and thought of switching from weekly to every two weeks. I tested after 10 days and had a 1.1. If I had waited another week or two (or three or four), it's possible that whatever dropped me to 1.1 would have passed out of my system, and my INR would have been consistent with what it was a month earlier. I really believe that more frequent testing can help spot these glitches -- and as others have noted, there can be many factors that create a change in INR -- even if diet and activity stay consistent.

As a self-tester, the 20 bucks or so for a month of testing is well worth the cost for me, because I am able to get a better sense of where my INR is, and to adjust my dosage if I get a funny value. Self testing also lets me see, fairly quickly, if any new medications or foods have caused changes in my INR. It also let me check the accuracy of a new batch of warfarin from a manufacturer different from my previous source.

If Medicare or an insurance company got stuck paying $50, $60 or more for each test, I would certainly consider self testing. But, even if insurance or medicare DID have to pay an obscene amount for testing, it's still probably cheaper for the insurer than terminal care or long term care for someone whose INR dropped without reason and had a stroke or hemorrhagic incident.
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but since my OHS last week, I have new information related to the comparison of these two monitors.

I was finally able to get in touch with an informed doctor at my anto-coag clinic on Friday. This is at the Kaiser Permanente Los Angeles medical center i mentioned in an earlier post. After questioning her, she admitted than in her experience with both the CoagucheckXS and the INRation2, the Coagu was the one that could read accurate INR while bridging with Lovenox/Heparin and not the INRatio2.

Bina was right about the hospital contract being the issue, since the doctor also admitted that because of maintenance contracts and such, they use the INRatio2 and also want me to use it, if I self test with them.
 
Chaconne
So there's a reason for everything--thanks for posting. It's too bad opinions are formed about different monitors based on which hospital received the best deal from which supplier. Unfortunately that's how things go. Both monitors are excellent and both should serve you well.
Cheers
 
I have only been on the Warfarin for 5 weeks and i have a huge fear of needles, so i looked into this home monitering thing. They just called and told me i was approved for the home monitoring kit. i did not even realize there were different machines, I guess i will know what machine i got whe it shows up.
 
Either machine - CoaguChek XS, InRatio, or maybe even ProTime - should work fine for you. The ProTime has fallen way out of favor, but is a good machine -- you will most likely get InRatio 2 or CoaguChek XS. I have an InRatio and like it quite a bit.

Not having a CoaguChek XS (I almost bought one a while ago), I think that the main issue relative to the InRatio is that you need a coding chip that comes with the CoaguChek XS strips. The InRatio doesn't require a code chip. This probably doesn't matter to nearly anyone -- but may be an issue if you don't get your strips in full box quantities.

(Here's a scenario where it may matter which meter you're using. I'm using an InRatio machine. I run low on strips, a friend sends me some of hers, so I can continue testing. Because each strip is packaged with a code on its foil container, all I have to do to be able to use my new strips is to change the numbers on the meter. In another scenario, I'm using a CoaguChek XS and am running out of strips. My friend offers to send me some. UNLESS my friend's strips use the same coding chip as the ones already inserted in my meter, I won't be able to use those strips I get from my friend. I realize that for most people, this isn't a real world issue -- your strips probably come from your health care provider or are paid for a box at a time by your insurance. In my case, I'm doing it all on my own, on a limited budget - and the increased flexibility of the InRatio coding system could be of considerable value to me -- especially if a nice person or two out there can help out with 'extra' or 'recently expired' strips)
 
I've had my CoaguChek for eight months. I had trouble getting the right amount of blood drop, but generally get it on the first try now. I found their customer service to be excellent. My meter noted a sudden increase from 3.2 to 4.6 in one week. They wanted to know details about my hospitalization to stop the ulcer bleeding and six units of blood replacement. The unit correlated well with my PCP and E/R. They sent me a new unit and I returned the previous one since their policy is to check the unit if anything like that happens.
 

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