Before and After Coumadin

Valve Replacement Forums

Help Support Valve Replacement Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

savin

Member
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
5
Location
Boston, MA
Hello everyone, new to the board but not to heart talk. I'm having a tissue valve replaced after having it in for 11 years. It's I was 16 and went for the tissue valve after being convinced coumadin would ruin my life and cause me to live in a bubble. However, after reading more and talking to my surgeon I'm leaning heavily toward a mechanical valve.

A little background - I'm 27 now, work a very non-active job (50+ hours per week in a chair), but an active lifestyle outside. I hike, walk my dog, do yard work and play recreational sports. I enjoy alcohol way too much, not to the point of dependency but being in my 20s it's hard to say no when the guys call you out for a beer - and as we know, it's never one.

I'd say at this point in my life, not having to have another valve replacement is the first, second, and third priority for me. So like I said, the mechanical valve is what I'm favoring. But to all of you here on coumadin, what's your take on having a few beers one or two nights a week? I'd also be interested in anyone who could share what their lives were like before and after being on coumadin. I basically want to know what others have been able to "get away with," if you know what I mean.

Thanks for your time.
 
Hi and welcome

Having a beer is something I do most days ... some days none, others 2 or 3 ... other days 2 and then a wine .. other days even more. Its irregular.

Some here report that it makes some INR difference, others none at all (I'm in the nothing I can pin down reliably and repeatedly camp).

Some previous discussions:

http://www.valvereplacement.org/foru...nk-a-damn-beer

http://www.valvereplacement.org/foru...l-and-warfarin

just for starters ;-)

The most logical thing I've read here is that the 'caution' against booze came from the view that when you're a doddery elderly person, you're more likely to have a fall when you've had a few ... falls can cause you to smack your head.

The thing is that when you start your own blood testing with a Coagucheck or similar then you'll be able to look at your own records and make your own observations. Then you'll go from "I've heard stuff" to "I know how it effects me"

Knowledge is power :)

Anyway, soon enough I'll be going home from work and will have a beer ... or two ... then maybe a glass of wine with dinner (unless I go for a walk on the beach).
 
Welcome Savin....you can learn a lot on this site. I was 31 when I got my first, and only, mechanical valve. I drank bear before my surgery......and even was prescribed a beer a nite as a diuretic while I was in the hospital post AVR......and continued drinking for 25 years after my OHS. If you can keep it to "social drinking" you shouldn't have a problem.......but drinking to "what you can get away with" is foolhardy while on warfarin.
 
Welcome to the forum, savin!

I was a little older than you when I received my first mechanical valve. Just shy of my 18th birthday. That was 25 1/2 years ago now. I survived my 20's on warfarin and going out with the guys occasionally. I don't drink much now, but that's driven by priorities as much as anything. I never really noticed much impact on my INR. I would run, go mountain biking (including a few obligatory trips over the bars), play pick up basketball, etc. For the most part, anything my friends were doing. Had an elbow fracture, some deep cuts (my front cog on my bike took a nice bite out of my shin once), a couple other minor surgery's, coached youth baseball taking a couple line drives off the ribs. All on warfarin and still here to talk about it.

I had a 2nd OHS 5 1/2 years ago due to an aneurysm. Stuck with mechanical. I was only 36 that time.

In short, going mechanical is not the life altering event some would have you believe. However, going mechanical is no guarantee against future surgeries. That being said - I'm happy with my choice and would likely do it again on the off chance something happened. Unless I was 70 - then I'd opt for tissue to ride out my golden years without warfarin.
 
No real difference for me before or after...other than taking pills and testing. I still have a couple beers now and then, ride my mountain bike, hike, fish......

It really is not as a big a deal as you think it is before you have the valve replaced. I would take the minor inconvenience of warfarin over the highly increased likely hood of a second valve surgery in ten years any day.
 
Hi Savin, and welcome too

I certainly agree with your decision to go for a mechanical valve this time. In my case I found that alcohol makes a difference to my INR and and so I drink only one or two beers or wines when I want, which is only occasionally these days for other reasons not related to being on Warfarin/Coumadin. Just checking that you know the reason alcohol is an issue: changes of your Warfarin dose take about 3 days to take effect in the bloodstream, but things like alcohol, leafy green vegetables and cranberries cause a more rapid change in your blood. So in fact if you are fairly consistent in your alcohol consumption there is less of a change to deal with, though I am not encouraging you to drink a lot every day!

As Pellicle says, self-testing your INR with your own home machine means you can monitor your condition more closely, and the first time I went for a drink I tested the day before and the day after to see what effect alcohol was having. However, a heavy night would be a bad idea, and I think your friends will understand that you can only have a few beers, maybe alternating with a soft drink.
 
Hey Andy, long time no see ...

LondonAndy;n865230 said:
... I found that alcohol makes a difference to my INR ...and the first time I went for a drink I tested the day before and the day after to see what effect alcohol was having.

just interested, how long did it take for the effect to 'percolate through'? and which way did it go?

Best Wishes
 
Savin, I wondered the same thing prior to my surgery. Been 8 months now and very little has changed for me. I drink, sometimes a few, sometimes half a dozen. Hasn't shown to change my INR much if at all. Im on low INR because of my OnX valve choice, so even if my INR goes up its a long way from the danger zone, so its really almost a non issue.
 
pellicle;n865234 said:
Hey Andy, long time no see ...



just interested, how long did it take for the effect to 'percolate through'? and which way did it go?

Best Wishes


Yes, life has been very busy and no problems with heart stuff, so not been on the board too much recently.

In my case, alcohol has the effect of lowering my INR, and the effect was within 24 hours. I think for many people, alcohol has the opposite effect, and pushes INR higher.
 
LondonAndy;n865244 said:
Yes, life has been very busy and no problems with heart stuff, so not been on the board too much recently.

actually I think having not time for here is a good thing ...

In my case, alcohol has the effect of lowering my INR, and the effect was within 24 hours. I think for many people, alcohol has the opposite effect, and pushes INR higher.
interesting ... we are all different. Ola's study (published on our site here) showed an increase in INR
INR-Alcohol.png


quickly enough and peaking just a few days after ... the graph makes it look bigger than it is (sorry to insult the numerically literate) because the scale is quite narrow. It took him from about 2.8 to about 3.7 ... so nearly an entire INR unit.

Myself I've never had such a movement nor been consistently able to say if it goes up or down in response to alcohol ... Anyway, I'm sure you'd agree governing ourselves by myths and untested principles may work for some but will leave others in harms way. Its interesting that you find the opposite of what others find (how many is unknown). Myself I'd really like to see a wide ranging and systematic study of INR and its results. I feel the answers will dispell many of the myths.

Hope all things continue to be smooth sailing on your seas my friend
 
Some real good stuff here, thanks everyone. I'm actually looking forward to drinking less and living a better lifestyle. Like I've said, it's not a problem for me, just something that always seems to be there. It almost seems that having this surgery is going to force healthy habits on me.

From what I'm reading here and other places is that there is a lot of old information out there. Someone mentioned the on-x valves which require a lower INR. There are probably many doctors that are a little slower in embracing new technology. If these valves are what users have been reporting, then I see very little downside to one being the right choice for me.

Again, thanks everyone...it's nice to hear what real actual people experience. I trust the doctors 100%...but lets face it, they haven't experienced the actual surgery. Information from every angle helps.
 
Hi
savin;n865258 said:
... I trust the doctors 100%...but

I trust my surgeon for his surgical skills 100%, but everyone under him has had far less rigorous training. When it comes to INR management clinics and GP's ... well lets just say I trust them as far as I can can validate their conclusions , but no further than that.
 
pellicle;n865261 said:
Hi


I trust my surgeon for his surgical skills 100%, but everyone under him has had far less rigorous training. When it comes to INR management clinics and GP's ... well lets just say I trust them as far as I can can validate their conclusions , but no further than that.


I trust my cardiologist as far as I can throw him. I drink between 0-3 beers each night. I avoid liquor. Thanks to Pellicle and others my INR has been between 2.2 and 2.8 since mid February and my dosage has not changed. The paperwork from my INR clinic said that 1-2 beers per day were okay. I was never much of a drinker before surgery.
 
Did anyone find themselves checking their INR frequently? If it's feasible, I plan on checking after I eat and drink some of the things that could spike it (leafy greens,high vitamin K, etc.) It'll be a long process finding out what works for me.
 
savin;n865287 said:
Did anyone find themselves checking their INR frequently?


I did this about 3 years ago. I tested daily for one week and recorded my diet for each day. I concluded that I really couldn't tell what, if anything, affected my INR. My dose was 5mg warfarin daily and my INR over the week ranged from 2.3 to 2.7 and my diet was just the plain old stuff I always eat. The daily testing did indicate to me that my INR was hanging around the lower end of my range and I did bump my weekly warfarin dose up a little, from 35mg to 37mg (+5%) to get me up to around 3. Normally I self test weekly and seldom need to adjust warfarin......I only adjust if my INR shows a trend over time and almost never based on a single test.
 
Hi

savin;n865287 said:
Did anyone find themselves checking their INR frequently? If it's feasible, I plan on checking after I eat and drink some of the things that could spike it (leafy greens,high vitamin K, etc.) It'll be a long process finding out what works for me.
yes, I did ... I took my INR every 2 days for a month a few times. I started taking samples every 2nd day, but realised that was 'over sampling it' (meaning there was not enough change in a 48 hour period to worry about and dropped it to very 3 days.

I strongly urge you to be through and orgainsed about this as tests cost money. I'm happy to collaborate with you and set up google sheets for instance to assist you in your experimental design.

The short answer is that in my tests I never found anything repeatable ... one offs looked like "yes, that's right" but subsequent iterations didn't follow the pattern.

feel free to contact me about this.
 
I'm almost 8 weeks post-op. Feeling great and find Warfarin pretty easy to deal with. I'm not self-testing yet. I'm relying on the clinic. They progressively have increased the time between blood draws. From 3 days a week, after I returned home from hospital, to once every 3 weeks at around the 6 week post op point. My levels have been right on and they have only once adjusted dosage. Once a week I take 1/2 a pill, all other days I take a full pill (2.5mg tablet). The clinic hopes to get the draws as far as 12 weeks apart, if my INR is consistent. I'm soon looking into self-testing though.

I chose not to change my lifestyle, eating and drinking wise. Within 20 minutes of being home after release from the hospital I had half a beer, and increased to about three a day. Now I'm obviously not a doctor, but I wanted alcohol to be in my system consistently, same with leafy greens. I eat what I want, and drink what I want. ****, I survived BAV, live a little right? I continue to smoke a small amount of pot every so often, as well. Nowadays I really don't need much, it's ridiculously strong!
Once I heal completely, 6 months to a year I plan on doing all the physical stuff I once did (if I'm not dead from my eating and drinking habits!)
 
It's been a while since I've been on this site.

One of the things to consider when taking warfarin is consistency. If you drink beer, try to drink a consistent amount daily, if you can. This way, when you test your INR and adjust the dosage to account for any effects that the beer (or greens, or whatever) may have on your INR, you should have a fairly consistent INR because your diet (food, alcohol or ?) hasn't changed.

I agree with Pellicle on many things. I agree that it's hard to trust many anticoagulation clinics. To me, it makes NO sense to schedule repeat testing every month, or two months, or even longer periods. No sense at all.

The fact is, if your INR is too low (usually below 2.0), and stays too low for a continuous period, you may wind up with a stroke in less than a week. If it's too low for just a day, you're probably okay. So, even if an occasional beer or salad orgy brings your INR down for a day or so, you're probably OK.

BUT - back to the discussion about delays between testing. If you can develop a clot in just a week or so when your INR is too low, does it make any sense for a clinic to ask you to retest in a month? They assume that your activities are consistent, and if not, they have no way of assessing if you're at risk. This is good for the clinics - if you die, or stroke out, or bleed out, you stop going to the clinic - to them, you've just dropped out of the program. This is great for their statistics - 'patient dropped out of program' - not 'patient died because they followed our advice.'

Some clinics have adopted this 'once a month' or 'once every two months' protocol because when these protocols were written, patients had to travel to labs for a blood draw. It was inconvenient and probably somewhat expensive.

In these days of readily available home testing, there's really no reason why weekly tests shouldn't be done - even if your INR is consistent from week to week. In my own personal experience when managing my INR, I've had occasions when my INR dropped below 2 -- I retested, I increased my dose by 1/2 for one day, and tested on the next day. If my INR remained low -- and a monthly blood draw may not have shown this - I may not be writing this now.

A few years ago, I was doing parallel tests - sometimes daily - using three meters and a monthly blood draw for validation. The meters that I tested were the CoaguChek XS, the InRatio 2, and the Coag-Sense. I occasionally also tested with the Protime 3 and 5 channel cuvettes (strips).

In almost every case, the Coag-Sense reported slightly lower than the lab, and slightly lower than InRatio and CoaguChek XS.

The InRatio was unreliable and I abandoned that meter, even though I had a year's supply of strips.

The CoaguChek XS usually reported higher results than the lab and was almost always higher than the Coag-Sense.

For my own safety, I prefer a meter that gives a result that is equal to or lower than the lab. For example, if my Coag-Sense gives me a 2.0, I can be reasonably certain that the lab will show 2.2 or higher - still a bit low, but still out of danger range.

By contrast, a meter that reports at or higher than lab values is less satisfactory to me. If my CoaguChek XS gives me a 2.2, I may feel somewhat safe - until I consider that the lab value may be closer to 1.9 or so.

For myself, I prefer the Coag-Sense over any other meter. This meter is not very well known, unfortunately. The company now has a collection tube (a capillary tube) that makes it easy to get the drop of blood into the tube and transfer it to the strip. The meter is larger than the CoaguChek XS, but strips are somewhat less expensive, and I trust this meter to be more accurate, overall, than the other meters.

(BTW - I wound up with three of these meters, but only need one, or perhaps a second for backup).

I'm not trying to sell anything. I don't work for Coagusense. My goal is to help others make the right anticoagulation decisions. When I have a LOT of money, I'd eventually like to help those who can't afford regular testing to be able to get the testing at little or no cost.

I went for three years without testing before I realized how dangerous this REALLY was. I was taking a dose that apparently worked for me - but I was AWFULLY DAMNED LUCKY that I didn't kill myself by NOT testing.

Get a meter. Compare the results to a monthly blood draw. Learn the difference between meter and lab and adjust for this. Test weekly, if possible, and more often if your INR is too low, so that you can see if it comes back into range.
 
Back
Top