Aneurysm or Aneurysmal?

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Just to add to the fray...

Here's an interesting paragraph and chart from St. Luke's/Roosevelt in NYC, which seems to share some of my notions. Added coloration is mine: http://www.slrctsurgery.com/Thoracic aortic aneurysms.htm
Given these statistics [see chart] it is recommended that ascending aortic aneurysms be resected at a size of 4.9cm. If aortic insufficiency is present in the setting of a bicuspid valve, the ascending aorta should be resected when it is 4.5cm in diameter. Descending thoracic and aortic arch aneurysms typically are resected when they exceed 5.5cm in diameter. If a patient has Marfan syndrome then an aortic size greater than 4.3cm warrants surgery.
To reiterate, they say that with a bicuspid valve and aortic insufficiency (a.k.a. aortic regurgitation), the aortic aneurysm should be repaired at 4.5cm.

Very best wishes,
 
A HUGE THANKYOU to everyone who encouraged me, educated me, listened and provided me with invaluable information. Just for kickers, I am going to start a new thread. Can't wait to hear your comments on this one.

Without your help, I would have just taken this drug and been on my merry way...
 
PJmomrunner said:
PToddy - I have only run a few times since deciding to run again. (My surgeon forbade it, several cardiologists said running was fine and a highly respected surgeon I consulted said it was okay as long as I kept my resting systolic BP no higher than 110. For two years I went with my surgeon's restriction because, well, "in for a penny in for a pound"--if I'm gonna trust him I should trust him all the way, right? But I decided I was miserable not running--not to mention fat--and my BP is under great control, so why not?) Anyway, the one time I checked, my BP was 111 over something right after running. I can't really say what I feel in my chest when I run--I feel something--pressure, I guess, but I am able to disregard it (meaning it doesn't give me pause or cause me concern).

Now you've inspired me to go get on the dreadmill. I'll ponder it whilst I run!:D
Your post worries me, PJ.
If you're feeling anything when you run, I wouldn't be risking it.
Just my HO out of concern for you.
 
I appreciate the concern, Mary. I did run this afternoon and I felt nothing--I'm being super-cautious, keeping my HR under 115.
 
Here is me now. Get it out!

taa_img05.jpg
 
You Should Know

You Should Know

My father was a physician, and I was raised to respect, if not revere them. I happen to have had an inordinate amount of experience with them. I can tell you emphatically that there is a tremendous amount of ignorance, even with the "experts". I too was told my chest pain was unrelated to my aneurysm. Funny how it disappeared after the surgery. I would say definitely seek another opinion! I have been told quite a few other "certainties" by doctors, only to find out later they didn't know enough, and were spouting some memorized stuff they'd been told. I can tell you with absolute certainty that many of those close to me would have no financial worries if they were only willing to bring charges for some of this misinformation. Incompetence is just as common in doctors as it is in mechanics.I have dozens of stories, one of the head of a dept at Mass General, a "world renowned expert", another of the head of a dept at Harvard Medical School. If you don't feel satisfied with a doctors answers or diagnosis, move on! I don't care what his reputation is! Best of luck to you all. Brian
 
PJ I think you are right what you say about trust.You have to make a decision and trust someone.There are so many different opinions about this.We are all trying to deal with it in the best we can and do whatever is best for ourselves.
My cardio told me the same thing about my running (systolic BP etc)and I think that if we keep ourselves fit then when we need surgery it should be easier (we hope)
I seem to be in the minority on this thread and I'm sure most won't agree with this but cardios and surgeons spend their lives fixing and dealing with hearts and aortas.They see people every day in our situations, I know they make mistakes but like I say above "we have to trust someone,make a decision and go with it"
Paul
 
Ruth, et al, here's a url link to a reference textbook for cardiologists and surgeons that you and others may find useful.

http://cardiacsurgery.ctsnetbooks.org/cgi/content/full/2/2003/1123?ck=nck#INDICATIONS_FOR_OPERATION

Interestingly, chapter 46 provides an excellent source of information for all of us and others with dilation of the ascending aorta. In addition, many excellent references are provided at the end of this chapter.

Keep in mind the aortic diameter is smaller in women than in men, as pointed out in an earlier post I think by tobagotwo. I believe one of the references at the end of chapter 46 cites a study that showed this and a correlation between aortic diameter, body surface area (not height and weight), and gender.

There's also some discussion of symptoms that are consistent with earlier postings in this thread, including ptoddy's.

Hope this is helpful, as well as the Yale study article.
 
Thanks for the Yale study Mr P.I have read this study before and it refers to a gnawing constant pain.My pain is like this.But it states that it is caused by the aneurysm pushing against the sternum.
I have asked 2 seperate cardios about this and both say my aneurysm is nowhere near my sternum they double checked on the CT scan . So it cannot be that.

I also cannot understand why the pain gets worse when I am stressed.The only answer I can come up with is the pain is caused by stress and not my aneurysm.I go for a run (nice and steady of course) the pain goes away.
Any ideas Mr P,PJ and all.

Thanks
Paul
 
Okay, now, you said "idea" so how about: vasodilation. Maybe all the pipes are wide open when you run and that relieves pressure caused by vasoconstriction (which would be exascerbated by stress?)?
 
Yes PJ that is what I think could have something to do with it.That along with muscular tension,tensing myself sub-conciously.
Do you think this could be what causes your "ache" aswell?
Thanks for the idea
Paul
 
Paul,
I think chest pain from an aneurysm is not limited to the aorta pushing against the sternum and should not be dismissed even if CT scan indicates your aneurysm is nowhere near your sternum. In your case, your pain may indeed be attributable to something else beside your aneursym. In my situation, the evidence was clear to me when the pain and other symptoms were completely absent after surgery....leaving no doubt in my mind.

From the Yale article I cited:

Questions and Answers
1.My patient is having aneurysm pain, but his aorta has not yet reached criterion dimensions. Should I be concerned about him? The answer is a resounding ?yes!? Remember that the dimensional criteria are specifically for asymptomatic patients. Any and all symptomatic aneurysms need to be resected because symptoms are a precursor to rupture. Aneurysm pain represents stretching irritation of the aortic adventitia, the adjacent chestwall or some other structure impinged by the expanding aneurysm. Even an aorta smaller than the criterion dimensions can rupture or dissect. Your patient is extremely concerning, and pre-emptive resection is needed. We recently were called on to review a case in which the patient had presented with typical pain of an ascending aortic aneurysm. His aorta was 5.0 cm. The caring team felt this was a bit too small for resection, neglecting the symptoms at presentation.The patient went on to rupture and die within 48hours. It cannot be overemphasized: these criteria are explicitly intended for asymptomatic patients; all symptomatic aneurysms need to be resected.

2.How can I tell if the pain is from the aneurysm or from other causes, such as musculoskeletal? This is a very important question, which is not always easy to answer, even in the most experienced hands. The patient usually has a good sense as to whether his pain is originating from muscles and joints. The clinician usually gets an additional sense on questioning. Is the pain influenced by motion or position? If so, it is probably musculoskeletal. Is there a history of lumbosacral spine disease or chronic lowback pain? If so, the symptoms may not be aortic in origin. Is the pain felt in the interscapular back? If so,this is almost certainly related to an extant thoracicaortic aneurysm. Perhaps the most important point to make is the following: presume that the pain is aortic in origin if no other cause can be conclusively established. This is the only posture that can prevent rupture.

3.How often should I image my patient?s aorta? We do feel that all patients with thoracic aortic aneurysm should be followed indefinitely. We usually image stable, asymptomatic patients about once every 2 years. Remember that the aneurysmal aorta grows at a relatively slow 1 mm per year. In case of new onset of symptoms, we image promptly, regardless of interval from the prior scan. For new patients, for whom we have only one size data point, we often image at short intervals until we get to know their aortic behavior. We may even image every 3 to 6 months for new patients with moderately large aortas. An important point to remember: compare the present scan not with the last prior scan but with the patient?s first scan. That is the way to detect growth. Many a patient has suffered because his scans were only compared with the last prior scan, and major growth went undetected. Comparing image to image is like watching your children grow; you don?t see growth on a day-to-day basis, but suddenly you find them grown full-size.

4.What diagnostic test should I use to follow patients? You can use either of the three quality imaging techniques currently available: echo, CT scan and MRI. If you use echo, remember that a standard transthoracic echo cannot see the distal ascending aorta, the aortic arch or the descending aorta with conclusive accuracy because of intervening air containing lung tissue. You must supplement periodically with CT scan or MRI, which can visualize the entire aorta. Regarding the choice between CT and MRI, this may depend on ease of availability and radiologic expertise in your particular environment. Both modalities can image the entire aorta extremely well. Elevated creatinine or contrast allergy may mitigate against CT and in favor of MRI. The need to evaluate complex aortic lesions in multiple imaging planes would also encourage MRI. Of course, in dwelling metallic foreign objects may make CT scan imperative, as MRI may be contraindicated.

5.What about my patient?s brothers, sisters and children? Should I recommend that they be evaluated? We feel that the data on familial inheritance are strong enough that the treating physician is obligated to recommend that family members be evaluated. Physicians of family members should be made aware that aneurysm disease has been diagnosed in the family. We recommend a CT scan for adult males and for females beyond child-bearing age. For children and for females of child-bearing age, we recommend echo of the ascending aorta and abdominal aorta. We hope soon to identify humoral markers or genetic aberrations that can be used for familial screening of the aneurysm trait.

6.Should I restrict my aneurysm patient?s activities? It is well known that serious weight lifters, at peaks of exertion, can elevate systolic arterial pressure to 300 mm Hg. This type of instantaneous hypertension is, of course, not prudent for aneurysm patients. We recommend continuing any and all aerobic activities, including running, swimming and bicycling. Regard-ing weight lifting, we recommend one half the body weight as a limit. We recommend against contact sports or those that might produce an abrupt physical impact, such as tackle football, snow skiing, waterskiing and horseback riding.

7.How about the new stent grafts? Should we intervene earlier now that those are available? Here is a word of caution about stent grafts. All three thoracic stent products previously in clinical trials are officially on FDA recall at the present time.The recent large, multicenter Eurostar study, due to a very high need for subsequent conventional surgery after abdominal aneurysm stent placement, questioned in their concluding statements the very efficacyand advisability of stent grafting. Endoleak, stent dislodgement and aneurysm expansion or rupture were disturbingly widespread in medium-term follow-up. We must remember that stents were designed to keep tissue from encroaching on the vessel lumen, not to keep the vessel from expanding. We must remember also that the natural history of the thoracic aorta is that it grows slowly and that hard end points (rupture,dissection and death) take years to be realized. For this reason, short-term stent studies are nearly meaningless. Long-term studies are needed. This new modality should be approached with caution. It should not, at this point, influence our overall intervention strategy.
 
Thanks for posting that Mr P I realy do appreciate it,even though it scares the hell out of me.
But I still have the question of why does it get worse with stress which it definitely does.
Pj made the point about my blood vessels narrowing because of stress causing pain,what do you think

And also why does the pain go away when I run

Thanks again
Paul
 
That along with muscular tension,tensing myself sub-conciously.
Do you think this could be what causes your "ache" aswell?

Several posts ago Rutho abandoned this thread, I believe, but I hope she's okay with our continuing to discuss aortic aneurysm symptoms. I'm very glad she got this started; the discussion is ipretty valuable to me--I mean how often do we get to ask another person with an aneurysm, "does it hurt when you...?"

To answer Ptoddy's question, I don't think so. The ache I spoke of is tied pretty closely to blood pressure for me and, thankfully, I rarely experience it 'cuz I usually take the medicine I'm supposed to take. MrP's post from the Yale article (where is it cited, Mr. P? Is it an Elfertides (sp?) paper?) and the inordinate amount of time I have spent removing snow of late have me wondering about other possible symptoms though.

I have mentioned before that I have chronic intrascapular back pain. It doesn't alway hurt, but it often hurts. I really think it's muscular though--usually in the late afternoon or evening after chopping veggies, washing dishes or folding clothes (dangerous activities I should probably avoid :p ) or the like for some time. It is one of the reasons I was concerned about an incidental finding of a small paraspinal tumor that I have at the level of the aortic arch. I investigated with a neurosurgeon because I wanted to know if it could be the source of my back pain. He assured me it was not the source. He said it could be referred pain from the mildly degenerated discs in my neck, but didn't think that very likely. It hurts right now, but I was wrestling with a snowblower for an hour and a half or so so, again I would think muscular, right? (Not to mention this kind of activity wipes me out--it's usually followed by a nap!)

I can also feel mildly sharp pain directly beneath my sternum when I roll my shoulders forward as I sit (slump:p ) here and pull my chin down. No chest muscles are tender to the touch when I do this, yet I've always chalked it up to muscle/tendon/whatever-is-between-the-ribs pain/tenderness caused by manhandling the snowblower or something else. (I do try to let the machine do the work, but sometimes it won't go up the hill or over a small pile on only its own power and it needs more pushing than my 20 to 30lb limit, but certainly not more than half my (ample) body weight.) Anyway, I do have a bit of doubt about whether these aches are purely muscular. Any thoughts?
 
FWIW, my son's chest pain with his dissection was MUCH worse with ANY kind of exertion - running was out of the question for him.
 
Deanne, I feel badly asking you to recall what must have been an absolute nightmare for you, but your input is worth bunches if you ask me. How long did Brian have that sort of can't-exert-at-all pain? And did he have any other kind of pain before that? (Although, not knowing he had a problem, anything less intense probably went unnoticed.)
 
PJmomrunner, yes the questions and answers were taken from the article by
John A. Elefteriades at Yale...url link below

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...+valve+aneurysm+yale&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9

and thanks, the word I wanted to write was "concomitant".

Paul and PJmomrunner, I do think there's also stressed induced pain and/or muscular pain which may represent what you are experiencing...I really think you'll need to decide and consult w/ your doctor. If there's any doubt, I think you should discuss your concerns with your surgeon.

All my best.
 
Hi Gang,

No abandonment from me. I've enjoyed reading your posts and learning.

It seems like what I have found is the doctors are only interested in numbers for the aneurysm. I understand, from their standpoint, that normally aneurysm's do not cause chest pain. However, the doctors seem to totally disregard the moderate to severe regurgitation, aortic insufficiency and a structurally abnormal mitral valve.

From reading Bob's post from Yale, it seems like the doctors need to put the pieces to the puzzle together, not just focus on aneurysmal numbers.

I'm scared to carry on with my "life" which involves lots of things like PJ seems to be doing...mommy stuff. I am not going to exercise until I talk to the Cardio, BUT THIS GETS REALLY TO 'YA! I need the normal life stuff to be "me" and can't do alot of the normal stuff because I am scared there is something wrong.

I have an appointment with a cardiologist on Friday.

Thanks again for all your help!
 
The reference from Yale contains one sentence that I want to repeat again :

"Perhaps the most important point to make is the following: presume that the pain is aortic in origin if no other cause can be conclusively established. This is the only posture that can prevent rupture."

The aorta is a master at disguises, so any one who expects it to comply with a set of rigid rules about what it can and cannot do just does not understand what they are dealing with....

I will post a link here about the real life experiences of 3 different men, on the same day, unknown to each other - some of the details about them were changed to protect their privacy.

The "fireman" had only a very vague feeling/pressure in his chest but it was enough to go to a cardiologist. His BAV and aneurysm were found, but he was told it was not big enough for surgery. Perhaps it was because he was in the back of the ambulance with him when his Dad died of a "massive heart attack" (today he believes his Dad's aorta ruptured) that made him uneasy enough to go to another cardiologist. Again he was told to just wait. This man was fortunate to live in a city with a very well known aortic surgeon, and still not satisfied, he found his way to him ( he was NOT referred by these cardiologists, who must have known about this surgeon). He was given some blood pressure medicine and told that if the feeling in his chest wasn't relieved, he could just go ahead with surgery. The feeling did not go away, and in surgery even this very experienced aortic surgeon was shocked at what he found - tissue so thin and weak, the surgery was just in time. This is why the Yale paper is so adamant about dealing with the aorta whenever there are any symptoms present.

Here is the link

http://www.bicuspidfoundation.com/Memories_and_Hope_One_Day_In_December.html

Neither of the other two men knew that they had an aneurysm. Knowing is a gift, because it gives an opporunity to do something about it before there is an emergency.

Ruth, I only hope you are in a position to do what this fireman did - get to an aortic surgeon and get his opinion. You will know when you find one, because they will be in agreement with what you are learning here.

Best wishes,
Arlyss
 

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