Signing papers while under the influence

[Nancy]

This is meant as a discussion of, I guess, ethics.

During Joe's long career as a medical patient, he has been asked to sign important papers, releases, informations about possible dire outcomes, etc. while under the influence of Versed or some other drug like that, or while he has been very, very ill.

I am his durable POA, and he usually defers to me to read and sign them.

We came across a situation the other day at dialysis when the manager came out to the waiting room and told me that she had had Joe sign some papers and that he hadn't read them. They were releases and "hold harmless" clauses. He has had a recent stroke, and although he seems to have all of his faculties, this creeped me out. So, I said, "Well, if he hasn't read them, then he shouldn't have signed them." She said, "well, I will be dealing with him, he is my patient." I then said, "no one should be signing ANY papers they haven't read."

So she took away the signed paper and gave me a fresh one for me to sign. Of course she was offended and huffy, and asked me, "You DO want him to have dialysis don't you?" Of course, I did. But that wasn't the point.

I also have been asked to sign papers just as the scalpel was descending towards my body.

How do you all feel about this? I know it is common practice.

 

[Ross]

I'm right there with you. If it hasn't been read and understood by someone with a clear mind and understanding, DO NOT SIGN IT. They've tried it with me numerous times and Lyn isn't the most intelligent person when it comes to medical explanations, but she signs for me and if she doesn't like the answer she gets or doesn't at least partially understand what is being said, she won't sign it either.

 

[geebee]

I sure get frustrated with people that cop (sp?) attitudes when it comes to things like this. How dare she ask "you do want him to have dialysis, don't you"? What a dumb thing to ask and totally inappropriate.

Sorry - I get upset too easily.

I never sign anything I cannot read. If I feel unable, then I have Chris read them and he advises me on the content. I sometimes think they ask at certain times just so they don't have to wait for you to try and understand what you are signing. Doesn't work when it comes to us.

 

[hensylee]

I completely agree with you, Nancy. As you know my brother is in a nursing home now and he has finally reached the point where he is visiting people who are not there. He cannot talk, he cannot walk, he whispers. Hospice has been brougt in. We managed to get a new DPOA signed during one of his lucid days some months ago so Nancy and I have the authority to stand for him. We have had great good luck in the providers not asking him to sign anything at all and they have deferred to Nancy who is there and I am not. When Richard was about to undergo dialysis in this area, the physician called me at home and said Richard would die without it and wanted my permission. I said I cannot help him to die, even tho he wanted to die. Richard had a directive on file at the hospital but they ignored it and my poor brother has had a miserable time since February because of it. They should have let him go, but I could not make that decision. It's really a sticky problem and so emotional, too. One day at the nursing home, Richard was unresponsive and the staff reacted and did not follow his directive. They reacted to the emergency of the situation and brought him back - with him yelling ' stop that'. It's is really hard when we have a totally incapacitated loved one. No easy answers. But bottom line is the patient is incapable of speaking for him/herself in these sorts of situations - and the KNOW that. Further in an emergency, they don't even have to ask us.

 

[PJmomrunner]

My understanding is that what the medical profession is looking for and attempting to document when they ask for a signature is "informed consent". How one earth can one be informed if one has, in a moment of coherence (knowing that one will imminently no longer be capable), assigned one's powers of decision-making (DPOA) to another? To ask such a patient to sign anything is unethical--period. To discuss the matter with the patient to ascertain their state-of-mind in order to determine if they've had a change of heart (regarding DPOA or any matter of treatment) is a different story, but to seek consent...just not right...duh.

 

[hensylee]

we already had a power of attorney but some places wanted it to say durable.

 

[Ross]

we already had a power of attorney but some places wanted it to say durable.

Hensylee there is a difference between POA and Durable POA.

What is the difference between a power of attorney and a durable power of attorney?

Answer: A power of attorney is a legal document that authorizes someone to act for you. You name someone known as an agent or attorney-in-fact (though the person need not be an attorney) who steps into your shoes, legally speaking. You can authorize your agent to do such things as sign checks and tax returns, enter into contracts, buy or sell real estate, deposit or withdraw funds, run a business, or anything else you do for yourself.

A power of attorney can be broad or limited. Since the power-of-attorney document is tailored for its specific purpose, your agent cannot act outside the scope designated in the document. For example, you may own a home in another state that you want to sell. Instead of traveling to that state to complete all the necessary paperwork, you can authorize someone already in that state to do this for you. When the transactions to sell the home are complete, the agency relationship ends, and the agent no longer holds any power.

A regular power of attorney ends when its purpose is fulfilled or at your incapacity or death.

A durable power of attorney serves the same function as a power of attorney. However, as its name implies, the agency relationship remains effective even if you become incapacitated. This makes the durable power of attorney an important estate planning tool. If incapacity should strike you, your agent can maintain your financial affairs until you are again able to do so, without any need for court involvement. That way, your family's needs continue to be provided for, and the risk of financial loss is reduced. A durable power of attorney ends at your death.

 

[hensylee]

we explored all of it and consulted an attorney. Mostly what we needed to do was change his address so I would get his bills and pay them.

I know there's a difference and far more power is in the durable. All of my brother's wishes had already been set up long ago and taken care of by him.

 

[Phyllis]

Good description, Ross. Dick has said that EVERYONE should have a durable power of attorney.