New to forum, but not new to heart valves..

[pchanson]

Hi all,
I thought I had account here before. Maybe I was inactive for too long or something. Mostly here for research due to a widow maker (11/9/2022) almost 11 years to the day after my mechanical aortic install.

I take too much vitamin C to have it be a normal "cholesterol" blockage and my arteries were clear prior to surgery which was verified with an angiogram. I'm suspecting a calcium build-up problem related to the matrix GLA protein inhibiting actions of a med every mecha valver has to take. Research I've done indicates this may be a problem for some, especially when combined with PKD or other kidney issues. I'm not saying everyone has this problem, but I strongly suspect I do, especially since I have PKD as well.

The odds say I shouldn't be typing this at all because only 1 in 10 survive a full blockage of the LAD outside a hospital setting. Only 1 in 4 survive if it happens in a hospital with a cath lab. I was at work when it happened and I don't work in a hospital. I died 7 times that day which means I still have 2 lives left (a little cat humor for ya).

Anyway, I'm Paul and glad to be here. Was a long time member of another forum but it doesn't seem very busy anymore.

Thanks!

 

[3mm]

Glad to have you here!

matrix GLA protein inhibiting actions of a med every mecha valver has to take

What is the name of this med? Thanks!

 

[pchanson]

I didn't specifically name it because in reviewing this topic on this forum, I saw some responses that were not kind to the people who brought the calcification subject up. The medication prevents mechanical valves from causing clots that may lead to stroke. Naming it may cause a firestorm of posts which may inhibit the specific types of responses I'm looking for by crowding desired responses out. Also this is an intro thread but I wanted to mention specifically why I'm here.

If you have a mechanical heart valve, you are taking the drug. There is no alternative. Tissue valves may require it for short times but eventually are weaned off. If you have to have your blood clotting times measured, you are taking this medication

I'm looking for dietary and supplement recommendations to prevent calcium build up in arteries. possibly related to this drug. I'm not here to argue whether it does it or not. The studies are piling up that indicate it may be a problem for some. 2 supplements that I have in mind so far are vitamin K2 mk7 and quercetin and how much each may effect INR.

Paul.

 

[Chuck C]

Hi Paul and welcome to the forum.

I take too much vitamin C to have it be a normal "cholesterol" blockage

Can you please explain what you mean by this?

 

[pchanson]

Your arteries have to be maintained from deteriorating. There is a high collagen content in them. In the case of coronary arteries it becomes critical to do so.

The main arteries supplying the heart muscle are in constant motion due to the flexing of the muscle when it contracts. This flexing action can eventually cause them to deteriorate. Think of a pressurized garden hose with water flowing in it. Now, step on it 10,000 times a day.

It's my understanding that there are around 5 mammals on the planet that get heart disease and they all have 1 thing in common. They all lack the ability to make vitamin C from glucose. One can't make a single strand of viable collagen without vitamin C. When you don't get enough of it, there is a back-up system to prevent your arteries from leaking, It's Lipoprotein(a) or Lp(a). It binds to broken strands of collagen making a "patch." This isn't ideal though because while it prevents death in the short term from leaking arteries, it also begins the build up of this substance on the walls of arteries.

Collagen in the body is manufactured using vitamin C as a necessary co-factor. The vitamin C is essential in the hydroxylation of the amino acids proline and lysine whch are key components of collagen. To repair broken collagen, this process must occur. One of the symproms of scurvy (lack of vitamin C) are purple blotches on the skin. Why? because the arterioles are leaking. We usually get enough to prevent this, but do we get enough to prevent heart disease from messed up collagen in our arteries? I say no. Is heart disease a sub-clinical or sub accute from of scurvy? Probably. There are many other factors involved but if it were me, I'd start right there and I did. Still had a widowmaker. I drove the doctors nuts (I also wasn't in my right mind for about 10 days after waking up) with diatribes on vitamin C. I knew also knew of this calcium connection and I need to see the vid of the angio done when the 2 stents were placed. If dark and diffuse, typical clot/chlesterol problem. If bright and opague, calcium. The problem is that hospital is out of network from my current medical system but it was the closest facility with a heart cath lab.

From wiki (which I detest but it's quick and easy and many times has it correct):

"Another possibility, suggested by Linus Pauling, is that Lp(a) is a primate adaptation to L-gulonolactone oxidase (GULO) deficiency, found only in certain lines of mammals. GULO is required for converting glucose to ascorbic acid (vitamin C), which is needed to repair arteries; following the loss of GULO, those primates who adopted diets less abundant in vitamin C may have used Lp(a) as an ascorbic-acid surrogate to repair arterial walls."

 

[pellicle]

Welcome

Anyway, I'm Paul and glad to be here. Was a long time member of another forum but it doesn't seem very busy anymore.

Glad to make your acquaintance

Best Wishes

 

[pchanson]

Thanks!

We've chatted before or I've read so many of your posts that it feels like it anyway. I joined 2 valve forums early on and I'm positive this one was one of them. Not sure if it shifts out those who are inactive hut in my case I think something like that happened or I'm just wrong. SJM 27mm Regent in the aortic position. Widowmaker 11 yrs later.

Paul.

 

[pellicle]

We've chatted before or I've read so many of your posts that it feels like it anyway.

cool ... perhaps over on the forum that Ross started.

I must say its interesting to read your above points on the structure and construction of vascular walls. It has been a long time since I studied such things and in the 1980's there were many holes in the understandings.

Worth mentioning however is the role of the gut biota for generation of vitamins (like C) but lacking the ability to generate it (I presume in the mitochondria in the liver) is a dependency. All very interesting and complex stuff ...

Thanks for the readings about Lp(a), its been a while since I've thought about Linus.

Best Wishes

 

[pchanson]

Ross and I had many conversations. If you were there, then that's where it was. Most of the talks with Ross were in private messages because the topics were attacked by the more progressive members instantly when brought up even in the supposed "free wheeling" debate thread. I scrolled back through them just 2 days ago and didn't realize how much we actually talked. Ross was a great guy with a big heart.

Linus was a rock star. The only person to win the Nobel peace prize singlehandly, twice. There was a reason for that. He should get one for vitamin C as well. Things that don't make sense about the modern theories on heart disease become much clearer when looked at from the collagen perspective. My cholesterol numbers were in the dirt. Walking out in front of a bus levels of low. Yet, here I am with 2 stents.

 

[pellicle]

My cholesterol numbers were in the dirt. Walking out in front of a bus levels of low. Yet, here I am with 2 stents.

and that's all that counts

 

[Woodcutter]

Not sure if this will be of interest to you but I had it in the file as it pertains to valve leaflet calcification. Talks about some things in common between leaflet and blood vessel calcification.

Vascular Calcification: an Update on Mechanisms and Challenges in Treatment


Here's some discussion of the Vitamin K mechanism with some warfarin (rat) testing that can be delved into if of interest.

Vitamin K​

Vitamin K is a group of cofactor vitamins involved in coagulation and various metabolic pathways. It is required by the enzyme gamma-glutamate carboxylase to modify Matrix Gla protein (MGP), into its active carboxylated form [42]. Active MGP inhibits calcification, and the exact mechanism is still being elucidated. Possibilities include binding to crystals and halting further growth, or by binding to bone morphogenic protein (BMP) and preventing osteogenic differentiation of cells. Vitamin K was found to inhibit vascular calcification in warfarin-treated rats [43]. In humans, increased expression of under carboxylated MGP is associated with vascular calcification and increased risk of cardiovascular mortality, and supplementation with vitamin K2 was found to increase levels of carboxylated MGP in dialysis patients [44]. Further study is necessary to determine if the increased levels of active MGP will lead to prevention of vascular calcification in humans.


Here's a figure with how these authors have categorized calcification mechanisms.

 

[Chuck C]

Thanks for providing your explanation.

I agree with you that Linus Pauling is a rock star in the science world. His Nobel Prizes speak to this and are well deserved.

When I was a pre-med student in 1986 one of my classes took a field trip to the Linus Pauling Institute in Norther California. The parts of the tour which covered his early work were fascinating. However, when it got to the areas of Vitamin C mega dosing it got a bit suspect. Our tour guide shared with us the size of his vitamin C megadose. It was off the charts. He claimed no negative side effects other than diarrhea. Also, worthy of mention is that he believed that dosing this much vitamin C might allow him to live forever. Yes, he said this with a straight face. This seemed a bit of a red flag. He then went on to tell us how vitamin c mega dosing could prevent cancer, heart disease, prevent colds, make an existing cold go away, cure AIDS, cure snakebites and many more things. According to him, it was indeed the panacea cure all, which would possibly allow people to live forever.

When the tour was over, our instructor informed us that while Pauling’s early work has held up and continues to be well respected, his later work about vitamin c as a cure all has not. In fact, Pauling’s hypothesis and preliminary findings have generally not proven repeatable and upon further examination appear deeply flawed.

I’m not trying to change your mind. People generally believe what they want to believe about these matters. But I do take issue with your logic when you state: “I take too much vitamin C to have it be a normal "cholesterol" blockage” and use this to deduce that it must be the warfarin causing your arterial plaque burden.

I think it would be safe to say that much of Pauling’s vitamin C claims have been debunked, while some, such as his claims about it curing cancer, are still in the category of “needs more research.”

If any other members are interested in reading up on my comments above, regarding the claims of Linus Pauling, I would suggest the following links:



““He and Stone conducted a shoddy clinical trial that claimed to prove their point, which other researchers noted had a fundamental flaw: The people treated with vitamin C were healthier to begin with, and so naturally had better outcomes.”

https://www.popsci.com/vitamin-c/
How Linus Pauling duped America into believing vitamin C cures colds

“What few people realize, however, is that the fascination with vitamins can be traced back to one man—a man who was so spectacularly right that he won two Nobel Prizes and so spectacularly wrong that he was arguably the world’s greatest quack.”

The Vitamin Myth: Why We Think We Need Supplements

As mentioned in the video by Dr. Brad Stanfield above, there is some hope about intravenous vitamin c to help treat cancer. Needs more research:

https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2...s-a-treatment-for-cancer-the-evidence-so-far/

 

[pchanson]

The whole cancer thing, yeah although stronger collagen bonds may have an effect on the progress through tissues. But the part about Lp (a) binding to lysine and proline are accurate. So is vitamin C being a necessary co-factor in the hydroxylation and cross-linking and of same.

Like I said, I detest wiki but I've second sourced this in a biology textbook in the past and wiki is fast and easy

Link: Collagen - Wikipedia

Then there are the 5 mammals that get heart disease while others generally don't and the commonality is the lack of ability to make vitamin C internally. A 150 pound goat makes 13 grams of vitamin C a day when he's NOT under stress. I still fully believe an ineffective amount of vitamin C (like the current RDA value) can lead to heart disease. Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise, so unless you're here to say it to anyone else reading...

 

[Chuck C]

Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise, so unless you're here to say it to anyone else reading...

Of course not. After all, you've done "research".

You comment a lot about Lp(a). Is this because you have elevated Lp(a)? If you do, are you actually following Pauling's belief that mega dosing vitamin C will compensate for the elelaved cardio vascular risk presented by elevated Lp(a)? Are you trying to treat Lp(a) with vitamin c, as an alternative to medically recognized treatments?

 

[pellicle]

Good Morning

Like I said, I detest wiki but I've second sourced this in a biology textbook in the past and wiki is fast and easy

why? Most of what's on there is actually true. Its even got references to back it up. Of course its not written by one author and there is a tension (a dialectic in some ways). If there is a problem with Wikipedia its that people with an agenda (not actually just following the facts) or people like Dr John Campbell interfere with it.

Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise

this is not a scientific basis for thought ... perhaps it would be better to be amenable to change if the evidence is sound.

What you say is exactly what my mum would say about the teachings of the Church. Science on the other hand is always a dialectic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9231292/

Numerous mechanisms have been suggested to support the role of Vit-C in cancer treatment and prevention, including that of increasing the immune system activity; stimulating collagen synthesis; preventing metastasis, by inhibiting certain enzymatic reaction; inhibiting tumor-causing viruses; correcting for the lack of Vit-C, which is normally linked with cancer patients; wound healing in patients with cancer subsequent to surgery; improving chemotherapy sensitivity; decreasing chemotherapy toxicity; and neutralizing certain carcinogens [31]. Various recent experimental investigations have shown that when tumor cells are exposed to high doses of Vit-C, they suffer growth arrest [32,33]. Recent reports have also shown that Vit-C administration inhibits metastasis, tumor development, and inflammatory-associated cytokine production, while improving tumor inclusion and enhancing chemotherapy [34,35]. According to some reports, intravenous injection raises Vit-C levels over 70-fold when compared to oral delivery, and the efficacy of the therapy is inversely proportional to the excess amount of Vit-C [29,36]. For this reason, the ideal method of administration, the dosage, and the length of the treatment are being intensely debated.​

So, according to science its "being debated" ... or there is a dialectic.

 

[V__]

Speaking of Wikipedia:

why? Most of what's on there is actually true. Its even got references to back it up. Of course its not written by one author and there is a tension (a dialectic in some ways). If there is a problem with Wikipedia its that people with an agenda (not actually just following the facts) or people like Dr John Campbell interfere with it.

I recall that academic community was quite skeptical of Wikipedia when it showed up. A big part of that was students looking up the information without any critical analysis, or independent confirmation. Which is still/always a concern, as far as the educational process goes.

But from the POV of the accuracy, there was an early study indicating a very comparable error rate with Encyclopedia Britannica: BBC NEWS | Technology | Wikipedia survives research test
... which reminds one that no encyclopedia is absolutely precise/correct. While indicating a fairly high degree of accuracy.

 

[pchanson]

Of course not. After all, you've done "research".

You comment a lot about Lp(a). Is this because you have elevated Lp(a)? If you do, are you actually following Pauling's belief that mega dosing vitamin C will compensate for the elelaved cardio vascular risk presented by elevated Lp(a)? Are you trying to treat Lp(a) with vitamin c, as an alternative to medically recognized treatments?

Never had my Lp (a) measured but my guess is it will be very low.

Speaking of Wikipedia:


I recall that academic community was quite skeptical of Wikipedia when it showed up. A big part of that was students looking up the information without any critical analysis, or independent confirmation. Which is still/always a concern, as far as the educational process goes.

But from the POV of the accuracy, there was an early study indicating a very comparable error rate with Encyclopedia Britannica: BBC NEWS | Technology | Wikipedia survives research test
... which reminds one that no encyclopedia is absolutely precise/correct. While indicating a fairly high degree of accuracy.

It's their treatment of certain selected topics that has had me concerned. The people reviewing the data also seem to be a very "clique" community and biased towards the "establishment" line, especially on nutritional and "climate change" topics.

 

[Chuck C]

Never had my Lp (a) measured but my guess is it will be very low.

You might want to get it tested, especially in that you had a Widow Maker. Lp(a) is an independent risk factor for heart disease and often is the prime culprit when there is a heart attack. There is really no way to guess what one's level is without testing, as elevated Lp(a) is genetic and is almost completely unaffected by diet or exercise. A person can have very low levels of other lipoproteins, such as LDL and still have elevated Lp(a). In 2022 the European Atherosclerosis Society (EAS) issued a consensus statement for all adults to be tested at least once in their lifetime. I believe the US will soon be adopting this recommendation as well.

• 2022 European Atherosclerosis Society (EAS) consensus statement. Lp(a) level measured at least once in all adults and in youth with a history of ischemic stroke or a family history of premature ASCVD or elevated Lp(a) level and no other known risk factors.
• 2021 CCS dyslipidemia guideline. Measure once in a person's lifetime as part of initial lipid screening.

https://www.acc.org/Latest-in-Cardi... measured at,part of initial lipid screening.

 

[nobog]

this is not a scientific basis for thought ... perhaps it would be better to be amenable to change if the evidence is sound.

This is logical.

 

[pellicle]

I recall that academic community was quite skeptical of Wikipedia when it showed up.

agreed, while doing my research masters (completed in 2007) citing wikipedia was not accepted in academic publication (not least because of the lack of control on the pages, stuff could go away), however every fellow student used it as a starting point.

It has a good summary, you can then read (as you should read) the citations provided; and thus use it as a stepping stone into a broader world.

The problem with Britannica (nobody accepts encyclopedia in academic references either) is that it isn't always as well referenced.

Lets take the page on Anticoagulant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticoagulant

a good and sound introduction for someone who hasn't got a clue from which to start.
every link is well supported with annotations for citations such as the first one [1] ... and the link send you to:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/anticoagulants/
seems good to me.