Metobolic Cardiology,,, is this hope or fiction - please discuss

[hook]

I am not trying to advertise for anyone, please read on.

I have had cardiomyopathy for 25 year that I know of. Twenty years ago, my older brother and sister went into CHF and both underwent heart transplants. As a result of my condition, I have recently had MVR surgery. I have been asymptomatic until 3 years ago, including time in the Marines. I didn't have problems until I started taking statin drugs in 2007. I began feeling sluggish and getting recurrent lung congestion, combined with periods of extreme exhaustion. I got a little better when I stopped the lipitor for 4 months while my wife and I were trying to get pregnant. At the time, I did not make the connection. I have never had swelling in my ankles so my cardiologist said I look great and sent me on my way.

Last fall I was again having lung issues, and my pulminologist recomended an echo. With my history I should have asked for these test every six months, but I was in a slight state of denial this could be heart related; after all, as my cardiologist said "the ankles look great". It was determined that I had severe MVR and was recommended that I consider valve surgery, but my wife was 8 months pregnant, and I needed to buy some time. It was recommeded to me by a health guru to buy a book called Metabolic Cardiology by Dr. Stephen Sinatra. I was skeptical at first, but thrilled with the text after reading it since I was hopeful it may help me. The one thing that stuck out the most was the repetitive recommendation that anyone on statin drugs must suppliment with CoQ10. This was also discussed on Sunday House Calls, echoing the same theme. There are other suppliments that make up the awesome foursome, but I won't get into that. After all I read and have correlated, I think my increased left ventricle dilation and resulting MVR is a direct result of using statin without this knowlege that CoQ10 is needed. Aparently the same pumps that make cholestorol in the human body also make your own internal source of CoQ10; without it your heart can lose vital energy to pump, and may compensate in negative ways. After the supplimentation I did rally and was feeling good for about six months. The valve did catch up to me and needed the replacement after all; at least now with much better timing.

The suppliments recommended in this book did not fix me, but I feel they bought me time, and have aided in a solid recovery that is ahead of everyone's expectations. My surgeon was very understanding and allowed me to continue the suppliments before and immediately after therepy. If I could just get rid of these occasional a-fibs, I would be ready for my running shoes.

Has anyone else read this book? If you have, what do you think about the metabolic science behind it? I now take CoQ10 600mg, L-carnitine 2000 mg, D-Ribose 5000mg, Magnesium 500mg, fish oil 2200mg daily. I think it helps, but with suppliments, it is hard to know for sure. I just hope I am not throwing my money away; I try to take only certified supliments so this stuff ain't cheap!

 

[Ross]

Hook I'd recommend you copy this and send to [email protected] and tell him that I sent you to him. See what he has to say about it. Just a suggestion.

My personal opinion is, it may help, but the only sure cure is surgery. I feel that your jeopardizing your own life by putting off something that may or may not be prolongable.

 

[hook]

Thanks Ross I will do that. BTW, I did have the surgery, and have a self tester on the way. My recovery is going great so far.

 

[Jeanie]

You were very smart to get off of the statin. ('I didn't have problems until I started taking statin drugs in 2007.')
When the statin drugs first were developed, I believe by Merck(?) they had found that the drug increased the need for CO Q10, and patented a formulation of drug plus the CO Q10, but never marketed it. IMO, that was serious negligence, that they knew it was an issue from the very beginning, and concealed that/failed to provide it with the drug.
See http://www.communicationagents.com/chris/2003/12/13/statin_drugs_coenzyme_q10_depletion.htm and see footnote 37 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statin

 

[Nancy]

Statins can cause liver problems. Within CHF there is a condition called ascites (abdominal fluid retention), which can get into the liver and cause problems there including scarring.

I have been on Simvastatin for several years, and have my liver enzymes checked out frequently, and they are fine. I also take CoQ10 because I know about statins and CoQ10.

My husband (who was the valve patient), and who had rampant CHF for years and years suffered from ascites and his stomach area would blow up and the fluid would get into his liver and sometimes his spleen. There were times when his ankles "looked great". So any doctor that uses the ankle visual examination as a measure of CHF is just plain wrong. When his liver became congested, he also at times had liver symptoms, loss of appetite, nausea, exhaustion etc. He eventually developed cardiac cirrhosis, which is not caused by alcohol, but rather caused by congestive heart failure.

So what I am trying to say in a round about way is that you should have your liver enzymes checked out, and you should also ask to have a BNP test for CHF (not a BMP test). The conbination of CHF and/or having been on statins may have done something to your liver. And your doctor should palpate your abdominal area for fluid signs and check out your jugular veins for prominence.

Ascites can also lead to portal hypertension and can even cause esophageal varices, so this is a particular nasty form of CHF.

You don't have anything in your medical records that says Pulmonary Hypertension, do you?

 

[hook]

Statins can cause liver problems. Within CHF there is a condition called ascites (abdominal fluid retention), which can get into the liver and cause problems there including scarring.


You don't have anything in your medical records that says Pulmonary Hypertension, do you?

Funny thing about the abdominal fluid; before my mitral valve was replaced I had chronic problems with my bowel. I hated to eat out because I knew I would get an upset stomach every time. Not to go into the TMI area, but my mornings were unpredictable. After the surgery by digestive system works very efficiently. A suprising benefit from the surgery.

As for pulminary preasure, it was slightly elevated just before the surgery, but this is normal with MVR. After the surgery all preasure were normal.

I am still n the Statins, but I take a lot of CoQ10 and Ubiqionol

 

[Philip B]

Great Stuff!

Great Stuff!

Those statins are great stuff aren't they. My cardiologist had me on statins for a couple of years. After looking at some of the most recent information indicating concerns with statin drugs, I took myself off that stuff.

I'd rather deal with changing my diet to reduce my cholesterol than take statins. I'm eating much more leafy, green food and much less junk now. Later this fall, I'll get my cholesterol checked and see where I'm at.

-Philip

 

[tobagotwo]

Ubiquinol is a patented name for a particular brand/formulation of CoQ10, so if you're taking it with CoQ10, you may be getting more than you think. Swanson vitamins sells it as Ubiquinol, among others.

Also be aware that if you're taking it, CoQ10 is not a pill to skip lightly in the morning. Your body manufactures CoQ10, normally in a plentiful amount. In some circumstances, the level dips. There is some evidence that statins can have that effect, and some that over time, many people with that drop regain a normal blood level of CoQ10 unaided. However, when you artificially add CoQ10, your body "relaxes" from making it by the amount you have added (the feedback mechanism for CoQ10 production is the level in the bloodstream). Over a few days to weeks, it lowers its own production to keep the proper blood level available. If you don't provide your "boost," the body can't gear up immediately to meet the deficit, so you may be particularly low for a while if you were to go on vacation without your stash, or be too sick with a rotavirus to keep pills down. So, if you're someone who doesn't actually need CoQ10, it may not be a great idea to take it. It's not a vitamin.

This is not to bash CoQ10, but to engender thought about its nature and value to anyone considering it. Some people truly feel it has worked for them, and there's no scientific, large-study proof that it hasn't, either.

From http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/coenzyme-q10/AN01541:

There's some controversy surrounding the use of coenzyme Q10 supplements to prevent harmful side effects from statins, a type of cholesterol-lowering medication. At this time, coenzyme Q10 is not universally recommended for preventing statin side effects...

...Some researchers think that taking a coenzyme Q10 supplement may reduce the risk of serious muscle damage (rhabdomyolysis). And some small reports suggest that troubling side effects — muscle and joint aches — from statins might be reduced if you take coenzyme Q10 along with a statin. However, no large studies have confirmed this theory, and current guidelines don't recommend routine use of coenzyme Q10 in people taking statins

This is one of the reasons the "Plus CoQ10" version of statins were never launched: there was no clinical proof of efficacy to show the FDA. The FDA will not knowingly allow a prescription product to be marketed with an unproven component in it (and you don't want them to).

Beta blockers also compete with CoQ10. Some people suggest taking CoQ10 to raise the levels back up, others say that it impedes tha effects of the beta blocker. Hmmm...

It is also important for people to realize that there is no scientific evidence that you can safely prolong the time before you must have valve surgery through any type or combination of medicines or nutitrional products. None. As Ross suggests above, you are absolutely risking your life when you rely on these products for this purpose as they are entirely unproven for this use. (Hook, I realize you have since had the surgery, and I'm delighted that you've made it through so well.) Of the products above, only Magnesium and Fish Oil have been tested positively in large studies for efficacy in cardiac issues. CoQ10 has had some successes in small, semi-scientific studies, and some failures in large, scientific studies, so the jury is still out. It hasn't been shown to be specifically harmful, and hasn't been removed from the market, so it's yours to determine whether it works for you.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coenzyme_Q10) has a partial list of CoQ10 amounts found in foods. Soy seems to have an unusually large amount.


Best wishes,