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Blanche

Happy to be here
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2001
Messages
1,685
Location
Arizona
that the manufacturer of the Protime machine, ITC, and its distributor, QAS, get actively involved in the problems that people here and hundreds of others nationwide have with getting approval for THEIR machine. If ITC and QAS want their fair market share of the potential $100million or more that is available in this market, (according to ITC's President and chief executive officer, Kieth Grossman) I would suggest that they not only advocate for those of us who have difficulties, but that they indeed lobby for accepteance of THEIR product.

My husband has the ProTime, and we had to fight to get it and continue to fight to keep it. We are dedicated to the need for point-of-care testing, home-testing, but the obstacles against the Protime mount and there is little support from ITC or QAS. To say that "I have a lot of studies about out device, or technical reports" does not but it. When one of us needs help, we can not depend on ITC or QAS to do more than give us article, after article. I have all the articles from QAS and all of the rationale from ITC, such as, "Well, there are differences, but you are still in your range," etc.

I would wager that there isn't a person here who does not know that home testing has benefits, such as quality of life, in range more often, less complications, etc. I can send my doctor articles about 70,000 German people in a trial study, and I can also send him results from a symposium of outstanding cardiovascular surgeons from Harvard and Ceders Sini who espouse the vaues of home-testing. Yet, it boils down to the validity (does it do what it is supposed to do) and reliability ( does it do it over and over) of the ProTime machine. My doctor's reply to the 70,000 Germans was, "Well, they are not using the machine you have."

There are several reasons for reluctance among medical professionals and insurance companies when it comes to home-testing. Convention is one. They are used to using a lab. We can argue the problems with labs forever, but that will not convince anyone. Another issue is familiarity. They just have not had experiences with home-testing. But, when they put up the results of the lab against a monitor and those results differ, we , you and I are left naked, barefoot, and alone to explain them. We all know what to say, but, when push comes to shove, it boils down to one individual person defending and advocating the product. The bottom line for me is that it as individuals we can not pervail. We need the active support of ITC and QAS. They need to get out there and do their job which is to show how their product meets validity and reliability standards. Marketing people, live Brian and Lance won't cut it. What is needed is the research people are ITC who are researchers and medical people.

Now, this is where whe stand. We believe in the ProTime system...we paid for it out of our pocket and he fight to keep it.
However, Coagucheck has the corner on the market. All of the coagulation clinics in our area use it. The 70,000 Germans are using Coagucheck monitors. And, my doctor is quick to tell me that. ITC and QAS seem to be willing to accept what ever comes their way easy. For us, the solution is becoming clear.....Get a Coagucheck. It's accepted in my area because the leading hospitals and the leading cardio guys use it in their clinics.

The Problem here is the ITC and QAS talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. They are willing to accept that which comes their way easily. But they, don't support those who have problems. "I have a lot of studies"(Lance). Having and doing are not the same thing. Appears that they are willing to accept what ever falls into their net from the $100 million or more...

My position may make me as popular as a skunk on a hayride, but I maintain that those of us who want the ProTime are on our own, for all intents and purposes. That's not the way it should be. Please remember if you wish to dismember me because I have raised questions about the role of the company and the distributor, that my husband tests weekly on the ProTime.

Kind Regards,
Blanche
 
Wow!

Wow!

That was from the heart Blanche and I like that :)

First of all, nobody will ever become "dismembered" for their opinions on this site. If that were the case, I would have never gotten past the first 20 members (those were the days :eek: )

I respect your opinion and will fight to the death to protect all of our members rights to express themselves. I alone determine what is "offensive" and what constitutes dismemberment. Thus far, nobody has even come close.

QAS is a sponsor of the site. They are great people (those I have dealt with anyway) and VR.com's relationship with them will, I believe, not be endangered by members opinions about them or any other matter.

About your posting in general, I think that those things you mention that you feel QAS and ITC should be doing would be great if they took place. I do not however feel that they are obligated to do those things.

Lets face it - they exist to make money and feed their children. If the market allows that to happen with the situation as it is today, then I believe that would be a reason why the things you mentioned are not addressed in a different fashion.

I'm not saying that this is the case, only a possible explanation.

I think it is mostly a personal preference issue with coumadin clinics and such. I asked my coumadin clinic why they use the coaguchek and not the protime and they said "whats a protime" :confused: . They didn't even know there was another machine on the market. Why change when what they have is working.

I worked in a hospital and a lab environment for 10 years and side by side with physicians. Let me tell you one thing for sure, the fact that they trust a lab more than either the protime or the coaguchek is due to shear ignorance. They have no idea what goes on in most labs.

I too would like to see wider acceptance of the ProTime in the market. I also think it would be in QAS' and ITC's best interest to do the things you mentioned. That would seem to improve our situations all the more.

Should they be obligated to "validate" the ProTime? Of course thay should. But only to the point of proving the accuracy, safety and reliability of the machine.

Proving it's worth, desireability (is that a word), or superiority to physicians and clinics, would be nice, but at the same time, it would not necessarily be their "obligation.

Wow - I spouted on and on and don't even know if I made sense!

Please keep posting your thoughts and desires - that's what makes this all work :)
 
Wow....Hank and Blanche!!! I just hope you are both listened to!! I can tell you that our cardio uses Coagucheck and the reason for it is only the 2 minute limit for the blood. They can use the coagucheck and have no limit as to the amount of time they have to draw blood. That was one of the big reasons why they went with Coagucheck over Protime. They also said that Coagucheck gave them the unit free and clear, but they have to purchase all the supplies from them......smart move on Coagucheck's part, when you have a clinic that does dozens of sticks a day, huh????? Does Protime do this? I have no idea, but it certainly would be worth it to stimulate interest in the product.

I would have purchased a Coagucheck---didn't matter to me or my insurance company, but they weren't available to the masses at the time I wanted to get one for Tyce, and their website is NOT mass friendly---physician friendly, yes, but not mass friendly, so we went with the Protime. I have no problems with it, and everyone has been so helpful that it has been worth it. The results are different from our cardio's Coagucheck, but we now know that we can get a plug from QAS to equalize the results with the Coagucheck at our cardio's lab, and we also have found out that there's ususally a .6666 difference between the machines.....that is no problem to deal with. I haven't gotten my new shipment of tenderlettes and strips yet, but I am anxious to see if there's a problem with them coming cool or not....I have no intention of accepting them if they're not cooled--and quite frankly, I don't care what their reason is.

Just my 2 cents.

Evelyn

Evelyn
 
Evelyn,

Please tell us if your Protime numbers are HIGHER or LOWER than the Coaguchek numbers.

My Protime numbers are typically 0.8 units LOWER than the Coaguchek numbers from my Coumadin Clinic.

It would be interesting to know how both compare with 'arm draw's :-(

'AL'
 
Hello Al


Our Protime is lower than the Coagucheck. So if Tyce is a 3.2 on the Protime, he'd probably be a 3.8 on the Coag.....I forgot who we spoke with at Protime tech support, but she was wonderful and told us about the plug that the cardio can request to put both the units "in sync" and that it was free--but had to be requested by the cardio, not the patient....Apparently Protime's ISI is 1.0 and Coagucheck's is 3...that causes the difference in readings.....all in all, it amounts to .6666... in the unit, so they said. So.....rather than go through all the changing, etc., we just figure that when he tests on the Coagucheck, if ever now, he is usually .6 higher. Thank goodness, he's been about 3.0-3.6 for the last few weeks, so he's right in range.

Evelyn
 
Al...I have to tell you, that we have NEVER done an arm stick at our cardio's....only when he was in the hospital has he had arm draws, so when people talk about going to the hospital or lab for an arm draw, I cringe!!!I certainly can't imagine doing it every week---to me, that's torture!!! I wonder if there's that big a difference between that and the machine, too.....HUMMMM?????

Evelyn
 
Hello,

Part of the reason that the CoaguChek is more widely used is the fact that they are a much larger company than ITC or QAS. When you have a huge international company, with hundreds more reps, it is obvious as to which monitor will get more publicity. ITC has Dr's and a fine group of technical professionals that contantly market and research new opportunities. We have the same, if not better, opportunites to medical professionals regarding our ProTime Monitor. The trouble is that we are not a billion dollar company with unlimited marketing resources. The fact that CoaguChek is on the market is good publicity to us. We get a large portion of our business because Dr's look at the CoaguChek first, and then explore other monitors like ours. There is no other device on the market with on-board controls, and and ISI of 1.0. (Recommended by the College of American Pathologists). In regards to insurance coverage, we attempt approval on every patient, and have an entire division of our company that works on this, for every patient. Some people cannot get approved due to policy exclusions, or medical necessity reasons. We could leave it at that, but we even are willing to appeal every decision to these insurance companies, at no cost to the patient. Sometimes patients even get denied through the appeals process, change insurance companies, and we attempt coverage again. We are one of the only companies in the country that goes to those lengths. My point is not to defend QAS or ITC, but to let everyone know that we go to great lengths to help our patients. Thanks to everyone who has posted, and remember that if you need help convincing a Dr. or insurance company, all you have to do is call!
Lance--QAS
 
Hi,

Just wanted to add some of my personal experiences with the Protime Unit, QAS, and my doctors.

At first, my insurance company denied paying for the Protime unit. Lance and QAS worked with me and the insurance company, and got it approved after medical review by the insurance company. Lance worked very hard with me to accomplish this.

My unit tested within .1 of the lab results, and still does when I have it cross checked against the lab results!

My cardiologist was impressed with the Protime and purchased one for his office. His head nurse also purchased one for her father. My GP, liked the fact that I was home testing and asked me to show him the unit and demonstrate a test. He thinks more people should be allowed to home test.

The Protime unit is a good unit in my opinion, and most likely so is the Coaguchek. Since the Coaguchek has been around awhile, and has more resources it stands to reason, that they have more placed in the market. I would imagine that the Protime units are gaining some market share, and that as they do, word of mouth, as demonstrated from my personal experiences will help. Also, they as a company should enjoy more growth and be able to put more resources into some of the process improvements that Blanche mentioned. Remember these units wer not even covered my medicare until this year. That will be a huge door opener for insurance companies to follow! I think that strides are moving forward for more home testing to take place, and, not just home testing for INR. There are many other illnesses and conditions that need or should have home monitoring capabilities.

Well, those are some of my thoughts on the issue.

Hope everyone is having a good week!

Rob
 
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Think we should find a rep from Roche to explain the Coaguchek to the good folks here at VR.com.

I was going to bite my tongue on this one, but what the heck. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. And mine is as such.

Personally, I felt Coaguchek to be a superior unit. Had the opportunity to try both before making my decision. Reading the Protime gave me was 0.4 - 0.5 apart from the Coaguchek. Just had a lab draw one day prior, which I understand it too long of a stretch. The Protime was apart 1.0 .... Coaguchek was still .02 in the same breath. That really concerned me. I also had a hell of a time getting my sample extracted and filling that pesky little cup before the time was up! One stick and squeeze of the finger and my sample is on the Coaguchek strip.

How about it Marty. Can you find someone from Roche that would be willing to comment?
 
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Home Testing Introduction

Home Testing Introduction

It would be interesting to know the whole story about the first time a home testing monitor for diabetics and glucose was introduced.

I'll bet the exact same scenario we are seeing right now with home INR testing was taking place then also.

"New" is always shunned at first and then accepted as the norm.
 
My two (or three) cents

My two (or three) cents

QAS never helped me in my attempt to get my insurance to pay for my unit nor have I ever had anyone from QAS help me in learning about how to use the machine, despite my request for both.

I gave up with QAS. I paid for the unit, made my own way through the learning process (which isn't all that bad) and made my own comparisons with my cardio's COAG unit. Not much of a difference, at all.

My only gripe, all along, was that the COAG unit is easier to use than the PT unit.........and if I had it all over to do, I would have gotten the COAG unit. In fact, I may just get one when my PT supplies run out.

I do see posts from people here that QAS has been helpful with them, and I must be in the minority. Something must have slipped through the cracks (maybe me) when I got my unit.

One Question: Did WE (VR.com) ever attempt to get Coagucheck sponsor us as PT/QAS does? I don't think so. I have never seen any posts/threads relating to this. So, to me, we are at least one up with QAS and the help that they have provided to the majority of their users, excluding me, of course.
 
My experience so far

My experience so far

So far my experience with QAS has been a good one. I did not choose which machine I would be getting, QAS was who my card had contact with. Greg called me shortly after recieving the paperwork and finding out what kind of insurance coverage I had. We had to wait awhile to file because I was going to be changing policies (within the same insurance company) in just a couple of weeks. All I had to do was leave a message with the new info, and Greg called back (leaving a message, since it's impossible to actually talk to a teacher during the day) to tell me that 1. if it is considered "in network" it will be covered 100%, 2. if it is "out of network" he's not sure how much I'll be paying since he didn't know what my out of pocket had been so far, and 3. the insurance people at QAS would do whatever they could to be sure it was considered "in network." I'm pretty sure they aren't "in network" but it's my understanding that sometimes, if you pull the right strings, you can get it paid as "in network" because there is no other option. Guess we'll wait and see. They should be working with my insurance starting today or Monday. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Perhaps the reason I have no complaints is because my insurance has not made a fuss over my needing it. They said all they needed was the letter from my card and it would be covered (this info I found out by calling them myself). I am surprised, though, as I've had to fight insurance on many other issues. I'm sorry to hear when anyone has trouble with their insurance. It really is a racket and I despise insurance companies, but wouldn't be able to afford any of my medical bills without it.

Good luck to others,
 
Lance,
If my question about a comparison of the two units is what you were responding to, please forgive me. Perhaps my statement was misunderstood.
I don't have either unit, but I am curious about someday acquiring one. I am not for or against either unit; in fact, I have only slowly been realizing that there are indeed two different testing units, and that there are differences between them.
I have a coumadin clinic fifteen minutes from home, and it is not difficult for me to go there once a week or so for a test. I went this morning. I had thought that out of curiosity I would try to figure out which unit I was being tested on. Of course, being pumpheaded, I forgot that long before I got there.
I have not approached my insurance company about getting a unit -- but I would in a heartbeat if I had to return to filling testtubes. In that case, I could use a bit of education on the two units available. Otherwise, I am only curious.
 
Apples and Oranges

Apples and Oranges

We're really talking about apples and oranges here. The ProTime and the Coaguchek are two different approaches to accomplishing the same goal.

Both are quality monitors and both are an important part of maintaining your optimal INR.

If you need info and/or help about the use of these machines, post here.

If you have a problem with one of these machines, post here.

If you like one of these machines, post here.

If you want to know more about these machines, post here.

If you want to COMMENT about which machine is better, post here.

If you want to ARGUEabout which machine is better, post somewhere else.

Not that anyone is arguing yet, I just envision it getting to that point.

Lets be constructive here folks.

Thanks
 
In network

In network

Nikki,

My insurance tried to call it ?out of network? too. I sent them a letter, called them on the phone and also sent them copies of pages I had found on the internet saying this was the only unit available. Eventually they did accept that it was ?in network? for that reason and paid for the machine at 100%! This was important to me because since they declared it ?in network? they now pay for my supplies at 90%.

Rain
 
To Jim

To Jim

Thanks for your post, and I'd be glad to explain the benefits of our monitor. Please give me a call when you get a chance, and I'll work with you individually. Thanks,

Lance --QAS
800-298-4515-2865
 
Another voice

Another voice

Hi all,

I haven't posted in a while...only because I have no wisdom to offer. On this subject however, I will speak.

QAS is so accomodating and helpful that it annoys me to hear them abased. My insurance denied, however I believed in the product and purchased it myself. I now have the option along with home-testing to compare it with the Lab readings when I choose. I have found it to be so close in readings month by month so I'm wondering where this dissention is coming from and why.

I've had no problem with the time limit..I find it an easy task of a couple of minutes in my day. I posted a while back..my 3 way test when I first received my Pro-time...Went to my Lab..where I work...took my Pro-Time machine...Did a venous draw..deposited it in the 'funnel' and sent it to Lab analysis...also at same time did a finger stick....all results were so close as to not be a concern.

Because my insurance denied coverage.I bought my own unit. I continue to do weekly home tests and 4-6 week Lab tests. I've had no inconsistancies beyond a point or two. My Lab does venus draws...again..no big deal...experienced tech knows my veins..saves them..knows what he's doing!!!!

Maybe I am overly cautious...but I take the best of both worlds and use to my (hopefully) advantage. If my insurance won't pay for unit...they'll continue to pay for 4-6 week test..In the meantime I feel secure since I am home-testing!!!!!! Worth any price to me!!!! I love it when my InR is high...Avacados/green leafy ....Here I come! LOL!

Zipper *~*
 

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