ACT and acupuncture

[ottagal]

Hi everyone!
I bumped into a neighbour a few days ago who has had ongoing back issues. He was recently put on ACT for newly diagnosed atrial fibrillation and was told that acupuncture is now a 'no-no' because of a bleeding risk. Anyone else told this or had this experience? I want to make sure he has the correct information!
Thanks,

 

[pellicle]

Hi everyone!
I bumped into a neighbour a few days ago who has had ongoing back issues. He was recently put on ACT for newly diagnosed atrial fibrillation and was told that acupuncture is now a 'no-no' because of a bleeding risk.

best laugh I've had all week .. seriously?

Rather than point out the obvious (that said practitioner is a moron) I will be be generous and say that they probably just don't agree with acupuncture and consider it a sham ... which in my view it is. Its a theatre in which a more powerful delivery of essentially the administration of a placebo occurs. Many Doctors don't like it as they feel it takes money away from them (at worst) and (at best) delays the person seeking actual effective treatment.

On an informational note I strained my elbow at work and it was suggested (by my Dr as it happens) that I give acupuncture a go on this issue.

I did, it didn't do anything to help the pain (but did lighten lifting my wallet, so there's that)

He knows full well I'm on warfarin (as indeed do I)

FFS ... bleeding risk? Talk about the bottom of the barrel.

Worth a read:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4578107/

 

[pellicle]

I should note (but as my last post was banned as spam) I'm afraid to edit it

I experienced not the slightest bleeding nor did I bother mentioning warfarin to the acupuncturist (why worry and confuse him?) ... I experienced no brusing and (based on my records) my INR was around 2.6 at the time.

I understand they don't ordinarily target major artery or veins ... so I'm mystified why it would be a bleeding risk?

maybe suggesting it to him (your friend to their GP) was a "brain bleed" risk for him / her

 

[ottagal]

best laugh I've had all week .. seriously?

Rather than point out the obvious (that said practitioner is a moron) I will be be generous and say that they probably just don't agree with acupuncture and consider it a sham ... which in my view it is. Its a theatre in which a more powerful delivery of essentially the administration of a placebo occurs. Many Doctors don't like it as they feel it takes money away from them (at worst) and (at best) delays the person seeking actual effective treatment.

On an informational note I strained my elbow at work and it was suggested (by my Dr as it happens) that I give acupuncture a go on this issue.

I did, it didn't do anything to help the pain (but did lighten lifting my wallet, so there's that)

He knows full well I'm on warfarin (as indeed do I)

FFS ... bleeding risk? Talk about the bottom of the barrel.

Worth a read:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4578107/

Thank You, Pellicle! Glad you had a good laugh! I almost did too, but did not want to offend my neighbour. I knew that you would come through for me! That was my thinking too, but I am not on ACT and I was very surprised to hear this. By the way, it was a cardiologist who told him to stay away from acupuncture....obviously, not a very informed cardiologist! I will broach the subject with him when I run into him.

Thanks again! Appreciate the input.

I do want to keep this as an ACT question and not delve into the pros and cons of acupuncture, but appreciate your thoughts on it. I had a elbow injury a few years ago and I can tell you with certitude that the acupuncture did help with my recovery. Of course, this is only my experience in this situation.

A little food for thought and for your reading pleasure, only if it interests you....and yes, this evidence based article was commissioned by the Australian and Chinese Medicine Association (full disclosure).

Methods
A search of PubMed and Cochrane Library for systematic reviews and meta-analyses from March 2013 to September 2016 was conducted. Three reviews from October 2016 to January 2017 were also included. Evidence levels were graded using NHMRC levels. Risk of bias was assessed using the Cochrane GRADE system where possible. All results were displayed in tables to demonstrate changes in evidence level over time, as well as the current state of evidence by clinical area

Conclusions Systematic reviews published up to January 2017 indicate that acupuncture has a ‘positive effect’ on eight conditions (migraine prophylaxis, headache, chronic low back pain, allergic rhinitis, knee osteoarthritis, chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting, post-operative nausea and vomiting and post-operative pain), ‘potential positive effect’ on a further 38 conditions, ‘unclear/insufficient evidence’ for 71 conditions and ‘no evidence of effect’ for five conditions. Evidence of cost-effectiveness was identified for 10 conditions, and evidence for safety was identified for nine conditions.

http://www.asacu.org/wp-content/uplo...roject-The.pdf

 

[Agian]

Physios have claimed acupuncture as their own and call it 'dry needling'. They use it a bit to 'release' muscle. In China it's used as an anaesthetic. It has its place, but I wouldn't call it medicine anymore than massage.

Think of this; the needle you use to check your INR goes deeper than any acupuncture needle ever will.
Btw I'm the president of the Australian Chinese Medicine Association, so I know my ****.

 

[pellicle]

Hi

Thank You, Pellicle! Glad you had a good laugh!

Glad I can offer some help too ... but just to make sure of my position, let me quote Marcus Aurelius on "how I feel about myself giving advice"
[h=1]“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”[/h]

I do want to keep this as an ACT question and not delve into the pros and cons of acupuncture, but appreciate your thoughts on it. I had a elbow injury a few years ago and I can tell you with certitude that the acupuncture did help with my recovery. Of course, this is only my experience in this situation.

Understood, so with that in mind, I just thought I'd mention that for many "complex" problems placebo has an observable and recognised effect. So it doesn't mean "it does nothing" ... Placebo pain relief can bring pain relief to a portion of the study.

However I wouldn't go for a "placebo" heart valve surgery or placebo on anticoagulation ;-)

Best Wishes

 

[pellicle]

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect

Placebos won't lower your cholesterol or shrink a tumor. Instead, they work on symptoms modulated by the brain, like the perception of pain. "Placebos may make you feel better, but they will not cure you," says Kaptchuk. "They have been shown to be most effective for conditions like pain management, stress-related insomnia, and cancer treatment side effects like fatigue and nausea."

 

[Paleowoman]

Hi ottagal Since AVR I have been hesitant about having acupuncture due to the risk, albeit very minor, of endocarditis. The needles these days are all sterilised disposable ones so they won’t be carrying any bacteria but a person’s skin is full of bacteria which can, in theory, be introduced with the needle. It’s just a small risk but it does depend on how deep the needle goes and how well sterilised the physio cleans the skin beforehand. Of course any needle can do that, and, in fact, the main reason why the blood transfusion service won’t let me donate blood anymore is due to the risk of me getting endocarditis from the needle - their rationale being that it’s not worth the risk to me. Btw, the last time I had acupuncture the physio hit a small blood vessel in my foot and it bled a little bit !

 

[ottagal]

Thanks, pellicle, Agian and Paleowoman for your feedback! All good points!

 

[pellicle]

Thanks, pellicle, Agian and Paleowoman for your feedback! All good points!

your message box is full

 

[ottagal]

your message box is full

Thanks Pellicle. I don't have any messages in my inbox. I only have sent messages. Perhaps, I am over the message threshold. Will go in tomorrow to delete some. Tx.

 

[pellicle]

Thanks Pellicle. I don't have any messages in my inbox. I only have sent messages. Perhaps, I am over the message threshold. Will go in tomorrow to delete some. Tx.

you have to delete them, then go to trash, then empty the trash ... probably the sent ones too ... or just email me

 

[ForeverThankful]

.............was told that acupuncture is now a 'no-no' because of a bleeding risk. Anyone else told this or had this experience? I want to make sure he has the correct information!
Thanks,

Hi Ottagal, I've had acupuncture a number of times since being on Warfarin and not even the slightest bleeding.

Sue

 

[pellicle]

ottagal

just a quick thought.

I've had acupuncture a number of times since being on Warfarin and not even the slightest bleeding.

I don't know why Sue undertook acupuncture, but if acupuncture is successfully assisting (for her) in the management of pain for a patient who's also on ACT (warfarin) then compared to many other medications (voltaren?) its not likely to have any interactions which mess with ones INR ... so that's a benefit