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tex4ever54

Greetings All!!
I don't really know which catagory to post this under - Pre-Surgery, Coumadin, or Valve Selection but I will start here. When I first talked to my surgeon, we decided to go with a CE Magna valve for my AVR even though I am only 50 years old. We based this decision on the fact that two years ago I had my left hip replaced and based on statistics I will likely need a hip revision somewhere in the 10 to 15 year time range. My family also has a history of colon cancer and I will need periodic colonoscopies. He feels that the CE valve would get 15+ years and that surgical techniques that far down the road will be much more advanced making second valve job much less traumatic. I left the meeting feeling pretty good about the decision.
After more time to think about it, I decided that the thought of two surgeries in my life did not sound that appealing. I wrote my hip surgeon in Belgium (Texas boy goes to Belgium for hip surgery -long story) to see if he thought the hip should play a part in the selection of valve type. His reply was no. The procedure there is replace coumadin with double doses of heparin 1 week prior and after surgery, and starting coumadin again 5 days after. Taking this into consideration, started looking into mechanical valves and decided on the On-X valve. I based my decision on their claims of better flow, new carbon technology, fewer morbid events, etc but mostly the fact that they are doing studies of aspirin only anti-coag therapy and the studies that they did on poorly maintained INR levels in patients in South Africa.There seems to be a hope that this valve could one day free me from coumadin. I had to go so far as to send a sells team from On-X to see my surgeon. He said he would be glad to use their valve and that it was a perfectly reasonable choice to make. Again, I felt really good about the decision.
Apparently, I am getting really squirrely as surgery day approaches as I am now wavering back to the tissue valve. After reading the posts about coumadin and surgical procedure post AVR, it sounds like a real crap shoot as to having simple procedures like colonoscopies, dental extractions, etc done. Plus that I had an informal discussion with a well known heart surgeon in California that echoed my surgeons first recommendation of tissue valve. Of course to further confuse me he said the CE Magna was "Old" technology and that he uses only the Medtronic Mosaic valve. He also said the surgical techniques will be vastly improved 15 years down the road.
To wind up an overly long post, I driving myself into an early heart attack (wait-that's not funny) trying to go over every option plus read the future. I will sit back for a moment and go over your thoughts on the matter. I have found in the past that you can get lots of mis-information from the professionals while the real story can only come folks who have been through it themselves.Thanks in advance for your counsel.​
 
Welcome to the family!

Welcome to the family!

Hi, my husband had his valve replace in October of last year. He is only 38. He has the stentless porcine valve. It was highly recommended by his surgeon and his cardiologist. His surgeon is one of the best there is. He frequently goes to Europe to teach other surgeons. The surgeon and the cardiologist both say this is the best valve currently available. They refered to it as the Mercedes of valves, Not the Cadilac but the Mercedes. Their words, not mine. My husband and I both did a lot of research on valves prior to his sugery. The choice you make is yours. A lot of it is personal. You have to decide what is best for your lifestyle. You should also have a second and possibly third choice since once the surgeon gets you opened up you may not be able to get your first choice. I wish you luck in your decision. Best wishes to you with your surgery and recovery.
 
Same situation as you

Same situation as you

Just wanted to say I am in the process of making the same decision you are. The only exception is that I am 36 years old so you would be much more likely to get 15+ years out of a biological valve than I would be due to less calcium deposition.

I have done a great deal of research on the On-X and agree with you that it probably is the best mechanical valve available right now. Will the aspirin trial succeed? That is the real question. If I knew it would, I wouldn't hesitate to go with the On-X as I am sure you wouldn't either. Unfortunately, neither of us have the luxury of waiting around to find out.

Good luck with your decision and your surgery.

Randy
 
tissue vs mech

tissue vs mech

I think that this issue is the main issue when contemplating valve surgery.
For some reason, my gut has always steered me toward a tissue valve. I cannot picture myself dealing with coumadin on a daily basis. As I told my PCP I would like to get away from being a patient for awhile and just go on with life....maybe!?
Now the interesting part. Both my PCP, cardio and surgeon here (Fl) reccommended a mech for me. I was going to Boston for 2nd opinion anyway. Lo and behold, cardio and surgeon there both said "we would only put a tissue valve in you. It would be right for your lifestyle. They will use the Magna in me. I am headed to Boston for the surgery on Tues.
There is much angst with this as it approaches but those here have taught me....hey, in a week it will all be over and I will be walking the malls in Boston...maybe a little more than a week :)
So good luck on your quest. No matter what you decide it will all be ok after it is over....listen to me....you would think I was done!!
Good luck to you.
Karen
 
AVR March 3rd

AVR March 3rd

I went through the great valve debate for about a month prior to my AVR nine days ago. I'm 54 and in good shape so the choice seemed obvious at first. My surgeon recommended a st. jude mechanical but my cardiologist said to go with a tissue valve. In the end I chose the Edwards Magna Bovine with the latest coating that supposedly prevents calcification. Of course no one knows for sure because the coating is very new. I don't want to bad mouth anyones choice but for me the thought of taking coumadin forever was out of the question. By the way,for me, the surgury was very easy. I woke up with no tube and with smiling relatives. I was home in three days and have allready visited my office. All you can do at this point is make the best informed choice of valve for your lifestyle and don't look back. Best of luck!
 
Mandatory data for people under.....

Mandatory data for people under.....

under 65 considering a tissue valve. Look closely at the graphs in this article provided by Ladyofthelake in the reference section. As you look at the bar graph, please remember that for every pt. this does better than projected by the data, someone does worse. Feeling lucky? Choose carefully!


http://www.ccjm.org/pdffiles/Thamilarasan902.pdf

Parker, congratulation! Your the first person to use "very easy" and (heart)
surgery in the same sentence of all the Vr.com members. I'm afraid to ask about the hard surgeries you have had. :rolleyes:
 
Choice

Choice

Well, I am 64 and will be getting a new aorta in a couple of months time. In the UK and on the National Health Service we don't have to go through all the agonizing over which valve to have as it is usually left to the consultant who, in my case, made the decision to fit a mechanical valve. A tissue valve, he said lasts longer, up to 15 years, if you are older, but the downside is that of facing the symptoms of a stenotic aorta again plus another operation at the age of 80. Mechanical valves, he argues, have been in use for many years and have been thoroughly tested and proved reliable. Even though Warfarin, or Coumadin as you call it, is a bit of a bind, they are constantly developing new anti-coagulants which do not have the same risks, side effects, or contraindications. So, I will stop agonising and take on board that old adage. "Doctor knows best"
 
Well, FWIW from a person who thinks coumadin is no big deal.

I had my last valve implanted in 1994 at the age of 42. My intention is for it to be the last valve and the last OHS I will ever have because, quite frankly, I am tired of OHS. I have a St. Jude's mitral, home test for INR levels (which are very regular) and have absolutely no problems.

The problems I have had in the past were due to my body's over-production of scar tissue. Since I had an old Bjork-Shiley single leaflet valve, the scar tissue kept encroaching on the leaflet causing it to stick shut. We made the choice to go with the St. Jude's for a couple of reasons. One, it is a double-leaflet valve (probably there is a more technical term but I don't know it) and the surgeon (and St. Jude's in consult) felt that even if scar tissue encroached on one of the leaflets, chances are the blood flow would still be fine. Secondly, the St. Jude's was state of the art in 1994 and I wanted a valve that would outlast me. Avoiding another OHS was my primary goal.

I was also started on an intense regimen of prednisone after surgery to try and reduce scar tissue build up as I was working with a well-known rheumatologist on the scar tissue problem.

I don't really know what worked but, here I am almost 11 years later, and still going fine.

There are never any guarantees of avoiding OHS no matter what your choice of valves. Problems come up that are unexpected and, if you want to live, you do whatever is necessary.

Having said all that, if I were facing my first OHS at 50, there would be no question in my mind but to go mechanical. I am more and more frustrated each day by the BS that is out there about the horrors of coumadin. There are more horrors and dangers on our highways but no one stops driving.

Take it from someone who has been on coumadin for almost 25 years - IT'S NO BIG DEAL. Far less a danger than repeated OHS.

Hope this helps and sorry to be so wordy. I have had a really bad couple of days (nothing medical) and am a little cranky.
 
Update

Update

It occurred to me, after re-reading my post, that it may seem like I was zapping anyone suggesting a bio valve. Quite the contrary. I was merely discussing the fact that many choices are made based on coumadin horror stories (the majority from those who have never been on coumadin).

I would hate for someone to make a valve decision based on rumors and not on clinical facts. Yes, coumadin use creates risks but so does repeated surgeries. Also, coumadin risks are greatest in those who do not maintain their INR within range.

If someone wants a bio valve because of lifestyle, future pregnancy, age, etc., I would not presume to change their minds. In addition, if you know you are the type of person who is not good with testing and/or taking pills, that should affect your choice also.

I merely plead with those who are making choices based on the fact that coumadin is "rat poison" and cannot possibly be good for you.

Sorry for any insults if implied or taken - none were intended. As I said, I am having a very bad week with a lot of family "pain".
 
Grateful

Grateful

I head off tomorrow to meet with my surgeon, this will be my last visit before surgery. Still in the decision category, although I have pretty much decided on a tissue valve. My surgeon is high on the bovine valve. Would like some feedback from you folks. Do not have to make the final decision for a couple of weeks. The information that you guys provide on this forum is better than anything I can find on any of the medical sites. Thank you all very much. Charlie B
 
valve and surgeon

valve and surgeon

not sure whether i understood your post well, but personally i would NOT want my surgeon to use a valve type/brand that he is not familar with!



well2u
ar bee
 
Question for Charle B

Question for Charle B

charlie b said:
I head off tomorrow to meet with my surgeon, this will be my last visit before surgery. Still in the decision category, although I have pretty much decided on a tissue valve. My surgeon is high on the bovine valve. Would like some feedback from you folks. Do not have to make the final decision for a couple of weeks. The information that you guys provide on this forum is better than anything I can find on any of the medical sites. Thank you all very much. Charlie B

Just wondering what your age is and how long your surgeon thinks the bovine valve might last?
 
I know you asked Charlie B this one, but in folks under about 60 it's around 10-20 years. My cardio said about 15, but I set the lower limit at 10 years when making my decision. Could go less though. Over 60 you're probably getting closer to 20 years or maybe longer.

I have the Magna Perimount(bovine) and I'm 41. My surgeon was completely comfortable with the tissue or mechanical as far as the surgery and suggested the St Jude if I went mechanical. I feel great now, but I'm only three months post op.........so I'm banking on a few more good years before my next visit.


Dan
 
More Questions

More Questions

Thanks to all for your input. 2 more questions to pose to the experts out there.
1) For those of you with mechanical valves out there. Hypothetically, if you were absolutely guaranteed at least 15 years of Coumadin free living by going with a tissue valve (also guaranteeing another open heart surgery after that 15 years), would you in retrospect change your decision to go mechanical?

2) Is there anyone out there who went with a tissue valve (aortic) who is now having to take Coumadin? I read on the Saint Judes website that 20% of people with tissue valve in the aortic position wind up on Coumadin. The only reason I would go with a tissue valve is to get away from Coumadin. The idea of taking the gamble on tissue only to wind up still taking Coumadin is not very appealing.

Again thanks to all for the input. The decision is getting easier due to the great info at this site. Coumadin does not cast near as big a shadow as it did when I first entered into this process.
 
ar bee said:
not sure whether i understood your post well, but personally i would NOT want my surgeon to use a valve type/brand that he is not familar with!



well2u
ar bee
Ar Bee:
I was nervous also at first about my surgeon not having implanted the On-X valve before. I spoke to both him and the manufacturers (MCRI) about that subject. MCRI is sending their implant specialist to be there on the day of the surgery to assist Dr. Hamman with the procedure. Dr. Hamman was familiar with the valve but just has not used it it yet simply because it has not been proven to be any better than the St. Judes valves. He said though, that they are at least equal and sees the reasoning behind my choice.
 
tex4ever54 said:
Thanks to all for your input. 2 more questions to pose to the experts out there.
1) For those of you with mechanical valves out there. Hypothetically, if you were absolutely guaranteed at least 15 years of Coumadin free living by going with a tissue valve (also guaranteeing another open heart surgery after that 15 years), would you in retrospect change your decision to go mechanical?


Coumadin is not an issue for me not to go "mechanical". The major concern I have are the HITS produced by most bileaflet valves. HITS are small gas bubbles generated at the valve and shot into your brain. There are some studies showing a slow decrease of mental capabilities to persons having mechanical valves. This has been linked to damage of the brain induced by the bubbles. However, it has to be said that one there are also studies proving that there is no effect at all. Summarizing the situation, the knowledge on that is not clear. I decided for me not to take the risk of the HITS and go biological because I kwold need all my mental capabilities for the next years.

Greetings

Dirk
 
tex4ever54 said:
... 1) For those of you with mechanical valves out there. Hypothetically, if you were absolutely guaranteed at least 15 years of Coumadin free living by going with a tissue valve (also guaranteeing another open heart surgery after that 15 years), would you in retrospect change your decision to go mechanical?...

That's actually precisely the way I looked at the decision at the time, and opted for mechanical (St. Judes). 55 at the time, skeptical of my ability to survive open heart surgery at 70 should I live that long. BTW, Coumadin really is nothing more than an annoyance, no big deal. But, yes, it is an annoyance. Anyway, I think I made the right decision.
 
Dirk said:
Coumadin is not an issue for me not to go "mechanical". The major concern I have are the HITS produced by most bileaflet valves. HITS are small gas bubbles generated at the valve and shot into your brain. There are some studies showing a slow decrease of mental capabilities to persons having mechanical valves. This has been linked to damage of the brain induced by the bubbles. However, it has to be said that one there are also studies proving that there is no effect at all. Summarizing the situation, the knowledge on that is not clear. I decided for me not to take the risk of the HITS and go biological because I kwold need all my mental capabilities for the next years.

Greetings

Dirk

Dirk, can you provide any links to these studies?
 
You will do best if you try to make a choice based on your individual needs. In the end, either type of valve will serve you.

As you have a higher requirement for colonoscopy, it would be reasonable for you to search this site for "colonoscopy" posts.

Graph caveats:

1) The porcine valve graph referred to in an earlier post was seven years old, and contained valve data that was at minimum 21 years old when it was collated, meaning the data included tissue valves made twenty eight+ years ago, and included no valves made within six years of the current generation of tissue valves. "DATA FROM JAMIESON WR, BURR LH, MUNRO AI, MIYAGISHIMA RT. CARPENTIER-EDWARDS STANDARD PORCINE BIOPROSTHESIS: A 21-YEAR EXPERIENCE. ANN THORAC SURG 1998;66:S40?S43."

2) The bovine vs porcine graph which appears below that doesn't indicate the start year of the study, other than that the valves had been implanted for ten years. As the study was done in 1999, the valves then had to be from an absolute miniimum of sixteen years ago, and may have been older than that. More importantly, they were not aortic valve replacements. They were mitral valve replacements. Tissue valves do not last as long in the mitral position as they do in the aortic position.

Best wishes,
 

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