FDA approved trail of ON-X Mechanical w/o Coumadin

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vprnet

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
112
Location
Randolph NJ
As we can see from this fantastic website, many of us have struggled with the dichotomy of choosing a mechanical or tissue valve. And for those of us with some time on our side I'm sure this forum will help everyone make the best choice for their situation. I learned so much from the members who have posted to this website that I would like to share my adventure in this new thread, or should I say what seems to be an abstract of a long thesis. Since this is a clinical trial involving a mechanical valve without Coumadin I thought this would be the best forum for it.

Last November (07) I was told that my regurgitating aortic valve was showing in echo it was time for intervention. After 15 years of going for echo's (I’m 54 now), I thought it would never be said. I rowed crew in HS and college, lifted weights to the point of passing out, and ran behind mowers in landscaping for 5 years. I thought my heart was indestructible. Needless to say, I never took very serious interest in my condition although I was told about a heart murmur when I was 18. After an MRI last December it was confirmed that I have a congenital bicuspid valve. Not feeling any serious symptoms and following the AHA guideline for these conditions I found out I’m a risk class 2b patient (2b or not 2b) I call it.

http://www.acc.org/qualityandscience/clinical/guidelines/valvular/Valvularpocketguide.pdf

After reading Adam Pick's book, consulting with 6 excellent surgeons, (Brown Morristown NJ, Petterson CCF, Stelzer Mt Siani NYC, Swistel, St Luke's NYC, Asgarian HUMC, and von Segesser CHUV Switzerland, and a second cardiologist opinion, I found that it was near impossible to find a simple majority of doctors with the same opinion for a condition like ours in the 20-65 years of age. They were all very informative, accessible and easy to speak with, and I understand excellent at their profession. Naturally surgeons tend to favor their specialty and experience where otherwise the clear choice would be a tissue valve if I were 65+. (By the way , lifting heavy weights is decidedly a no-no for BAV).

So I made an assessment of all the input I had gathered in reading and consultations and of my personal preferences since there is no perfect recommended solution. I came up with the following: I prefer not to have Coumadin more than I prefer not to have a second operation. I thought that left me only with repair or tissue options until I came across the FDA approved study on the ON-X valve. The study began in July 2006 and will likely not be completed until 2015.

http://www.onxlti.com/onxlti-hv-proact.html

The more I looked into it the more I liked what I read. Even though there is still the risk of having to be on Coumadin for life with this valve my feeling is it is no greater a risk than having to be on Coumadin with a tissue valve were afib can bring it into play anyway. This of course assumes the ON-X study pans out. For me that risk outweighs the thought of having to go for a second operation in the next 10 - 15 years, which from what I have gathered is a greater risk for any of the tissue (including Ross) and repair options for the BAV 20- 65 year old age group. So I signed up for the study, almost a year after starting this story.

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00291525

Naturally the study itself is a risk, and I guess one's choice will be determined one’s own risk assessment of what risks we are more willing or less willing to take with any of the options before us. The good news for me was that my test to sensitivity to Plavix is positive, now I'm waiting on aspirin sensitivity test results. If that proves good I can look forward to the possibility of a life with an ON-X mechanical valve w/o Coumadin. If the sensitivity tests failed my fallback decision was valve repair at with an ON-X as backup since I was told that sensitivity to Plavix improves with age.

By the way, the AHA guideline recommends repair/sparing whenever possible, but the stats I've seen and from the discussions I've had the risk of needing reop after repair is no less than a tissue valve but the heart is preserved longer in its natural state and you have your own live tissue to help fight off infections. CFF is highly regarded in the field of valve repair/sparing.


http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/disorders/valve/aorticvalvesurgery.aspx

http://cardiacsurgery.ctsnetbooks.org/cgi/content/full/3/2008/935?ck=nck

http://www.umm.edu/heart/aortic_valve_preserv.htm

To all still pondering your decision and surgery options, and those who have made it and are on your way to recovery, all the best wishes.

vprnet
BAV patient
Planning surgery this year
Mechanical ON-X clinical trail for reduced anticoagulation (reduced or no Coumaden)

PS. I am not a medical professional or a doctor. My comments in this forum are my own opinion and are not intended to be given as medical or professional advise or a recommendation of any valve choice. Decisions that affect your health and wellbeing are ultimately yours and your doctors. vprnet
 
IMHO Plavix is far more dangerous and expensive then Coumadin. Coumadin only gets a bad rap simply because the majority of Doctors do not understand how to dose the drug and some have no clue as to how it works. When I was on Plavix, I coughed up blood, had bloody noses constantly and explosive uncontrollable diarrhea. I've heard others having problems with it as well, but don't recall who they were.

I'm only trying to say Coumadin isn't the boogieman that it's made out to be if it's PROPERLY dosed and INR is maintained in range, which means you have to be compliant with testing regularly. Home testing makes it all that much more easy.

Plavix - 75mg Tablets
Quantity Our Price
30 tablets $151.94 - save 12% ($21.17)

Coumadin - 5mg Tablets
Quantity Our Price
30 tablets $41.72

Bear in mind also that with each surgery you must have, your risks increase. For some, there very first surgery is a major event making second surgery all that much more iffy. I've been through 2 and I will not make it through a 3rd. That's a given. Just food for thought.
 
Interesting, although I don't have any issues with Coumadin, and I've been on it 10 years. If and when I need a replacement, I'm hoping I'll be well into old age and will probably go for a tissue valve. The reason is because my skin is thinning as I get older and I am more prone to bleed if I get a tiny scratch. It's okay now, but if my now 100 year old grandmother is any indication, just touching my skin in the future will cause significant bruising and bleeding under the skin, a condition that I don't think would mix well with Coumadin.

Anyway, I don't know anything about Plavix, but I wouldn't think that long term aspirin use would be desireable. I took aspirin for several months (fairly high doses) when I had Rheumatic Fever over 30 years ago, and I still have stomach problems caused by that.



Ross, do you actually get Coumadin, or do you take Warfarin? Warfarin is just $4 at every major pharmacy in our area now.
 
I get Barr Warfarin unless my buddy stock piles on brand Coumadin and gives me some of his overstock. My copay for warfarin is $2.25 for a 30 day supply.

If I were advanced in years, say oh maybe 58 or there abouts, I'd go tissue. I just cannot condone people having repeat surgeries simply to avoid Coumadin.
 
ON-X and Plavix

ON-X and Plavix

Before I jumped into this trial, I asked for Plavix screening and a prescription to assess how my body would respond or any allergic reactions. So far no issues. They are supposedly rare. But in any case, it is always good to read the clinical trial information on any drug or medical device. In the case of Plavix, it's very well documented:

http://www.drugs.com/pro/plavix.html

The non-Coumidin ON-X regimen calls for Plavix plus 325mg aspirin. I've been on 85mg eccentric coated aspirin for over 15 years also with no issues.

vprnet

For those of us who have the time make elective decisions, I believe it is best to base those decisions on credible information, advice, debate, and also gut feel because, in the end, we have to live with those decisions

PS. I am not a medical professional or a doctor. My comments in this forum are my own opinion and are not intended to be given as medical or professional advise or a recommendation of any valve choice. Decisions that affect your health and wellbeing are ultimately yours and your doctors. vprnet
 
Before I jumped into this trial, I asked for Plavix screening and a prescription to assess how my body would respond or any allergic reactions. So far no issues. They are supposedly rare. But in any case, it is always good to read the clinical trial information on any drug or medical device. In the case of Plavix, it's very well documented:

http://www.drugs.com/pro/plavix.html

The non-Coumidin ON-X regimen calls for Plavix plus 325mg aspirin. I've been on 85mg eccentric coated aspirin for over 15 years also with no issues.

vprnet

For those of us who have the time make elective decisions, I believe it is best to base those decisions on credible information, advice, debate, and also gut feel because, in the end, we have to live with those decisions

Do you have a reason/need to take Plavix?

Just wondering, since coincidentally, Bristol-Myers makes both Plavix and the Coumadin brand of warfarin. Just curious where the Plavix entered the picture.
 
I guess I am still a little confused by the attraction of the possibility of exchanging coumadin for plavix and aspirin. Coumadin has been out a lot longer than plavix, has tests to control the levels and really, in the most part, probably has less side effects than some of the more widely used drugs like statins, etc. Do we even know yet all the long-term issues that might occur with plavix or why it is preferable to coumadin? Can't plavix cause extended bleeding also?

I am sure you need to come off plavix and aspirin for any surgeries. I am sure I will be answered by those in the know but I guess I am not one of them yet.
 
To Vprnet, I found your post that introduced this thread to be interesting and you certainly seem to have done your research. Given the current science of heart valve surgery, it kinda boils down to three choices:

Tissue valve...If you are young, you will need multiple surgeries. At some point in the future you may get a mechanical valve anyway. Contrary to what surgeons say, OHS ain't no fun. From what I've read here, it is a lot the same as when I had mine. Hopefully, and it appears increasingly more likely, I will never need a reop. That is the real advantage of a......

Mechanical valve...If I were 70+ I would, probably, maybe, I'm not sure, get a tissue valve :confused:. If I were 31 again, I obviously would get the mechanical. The rumors about Warfarin are unfounded. It is a simple drug with (for me) NO side effects so long as I take it as prescribed and test routinely. As I age and other meds are added, I am having a little more trouble in keeping my INR in a stable range. For that reason, I would consider a tissue valve for me. Now, it apears there may be a third choice....

a new, no or lo anti-coagulant drugs (On-x ?) mechanical valve. IT'S ABOUT TIME and I truly hope it works. If IT is all that IT is touted to be, IT will be one of the greatest advancement in 50+ years of valve technology. Only time will tell, and if IT doesn't work "as advertised", you can always go back to the dependable old standby, Warfarin.

I am truly grateful for this type of surgery. Without it I can GUARANTEE that I would not have posted this message. Incidentally, I have been on Warfarin longer than most and I am still waiting for anyone in the medical or pharmaceutical industry to interview me as to my thoughts on Warfarin. A Cardiologist once told me he "would choose a mechanical valve like mine except for being on coumadin". That was in 1985:eek:. Hmmmmmm, I wonder if HE is still alive?:rolleyes: I truly feel that letting Warfarin therapy play a "big, big role" in valve choice is letting "the tail wag the dog".:p
 
When I had my first surgery in 1980 I was given no choice. The surgeon decided on the spot when he couldn't repair my valve as he thought. The only other choice at the time was a pig valve that was lasting less than 5 years.

Coumadin was not presented as any big deal - merely another pill that required a monthly blood draw.

Maybe less information in some cases is better. Those of us who have been on coumadin for a long time are lucky that we just think of it as another pill with some small occasional inconveniences to exchange for the priviledge of staying on this earth.

I am not advocating keeping information from patients - quite the opposite. I have just found, in my life and experience, some things can be incredibly overthought.;):D
 
If I were to need a valve replacement prior to an age where a tissue valve would pretty much guarantee me no more surgery, I would be interested in the On-X. My interest isn't due to the hope that it will require no Coumadin, but the reason behind the hope that it will require no Coumadin. I've been on "the stuff" ;) for 17 years without issue. My interest in the On-X comes from the flow dynamics across the valve supposedly causing less chance for clotting.

I've known 2 people on Plavix (non-valve related) that had some significant issues with Plavix and bleeding. So, since I've never had any bleeding issues with Coumadin, I'm in no hurry to replace it with another drug.
 
Cool. There aren't enough people willing to take the risk to move science ahead, and I appreciate those like yourself who do.

There are also two, new drugs being looked at for long-term ACT (they haven't been approved for that purpose yet, but are approved for other ACT purposes, such as hip replacement surgery). Neither requires dosage adjustments to remain effective, cutting down on the blood testing. There will be trials for these soon enough, I'm sure.

There's money to be made here, so you can be sure they're looking for better answers all the time.

Best wishes,
 
When I had my first surgery in 1980 I was given no choice. The surgeon decided on the spot when he couldn't repair my valve as he thought. The only other choice at the time was a pig valve that was lasting less than 5 years.

Coumadin was not presented as any big deal - merely another pill that required a monthly blood draw.

Maybe less information in some cases is better. Those of us who have been on coumadin for a long time are lucky that we just think of it as another pill with some small occasional inconveniences to exchange for the priviledge of staying on this earth.

I am not advocating keeping information from patients - quite the opposite. I have just found, in my life and experience, some things can be incredibly overthought.;):D

I'm not an expert but this is the way I understand the difference. Plavix is a blood thinner. Coumadin does not let your blood clot. I'm on Plavix now. The drug is not effected by what I eat or drink and I do not have to monitor my INR. Right now with plavix I just bruise a little easier. From what I understand the anticoagulent is riskier for bleeding. That is the elementary version. Please correct me if I am wrong for those that maybe more educated.

Tanya
 
To Vprnet, I found your post that introduced this thread to be interesting and you certainly seem to have done your research. Given the current science of heart valve surgery, it kinda boils down to three choices:

Tissue valve...If you are young, you will need multiple surgeries. At some point in the future you may get a mechanical valve anyway. Contrary to what surgeons say, OHS ain't no fun. From what I've read here, it is a lot the same as when I had mine. Hopefully, and it appears increasingly more likely, I will never need a reop. That is the real advantage of a......

Mechanical valve...If I were 70+ I would, probably, maybe, I'm not sure, get a tissue valve :confused:. If I were 31 again, I obviously would get the mechanical. The rumors about Warfarin are unfounded. It is a simple drug with (for me) NO side effects so long as I take it as prescribed and test routinely. As I age and other meds are added, I am having a little more trouble in keeping my INR in a stable range. For that reason, I would consider a tissue valve for me. Now, it apears there may be a third choice....

a new, no or lo anti-coagulant drugs (On-x ?) mechanical valve. IT'S ABOUT TIME and I truly hope it works. If IT is all that IT is touted to be, IT will be one of the greatest advancement in 50+ years of valve technology. Only time will tell, and if IT doesn't work "as advertised", you can always go back to the dependable old standby, Warfarin.

I am truly grateful for this type of surgery. Without it I can GUARANTEE that I would not have posted this message. Incidentally, I have been on Warfarin longer than most and I am still waiting for anyone in the medical or pharmaceutical industry to interview me as to my thoughts on Warfarin. A Cardiologist once told me he "would choose a mechanical valve like mine except for being on coumadin". That was in 1985:eek:. Hmmmmmm, I wonder if HE is still alive?:rolleyes: I truly feel that letting Warfarin therapy play a "big, big role" in valve choice is letting "the tail wag the dog".:p

Thank you for your insight. Your experience and opinion is greatly appreciated. It has help put me a peace with my decision. You never know how you will effect a person.

Only 4 more days.

Tanya
 
wtatc88 said:
Coumadin does not let your blood clot

Actually coumadin does not prevent your blood from clotting - it only causes it to clot more slowly.
 
I'm not an expert but this is the way I understand the difference. Plavix is a blood thinner. Coumadin does not let your blood clot. I'm on Plavix now. The drug is not effected by what I eat or drink and I do not have to monitor my INR. Right now with plavix I just bruise a little easier. From what I understand the anticoagulent is riskier for bleeding. That is the elementary version. Please correct me if I am wrong for those that maybe more educated.

Tanya

Tanya you will still clot with Coumadin. Coumadin simply increases the amount of time it takes to form a clot. A normal full coagualated person clots in 9 to 12 seconds. A Person on Coumadin and in their prescribed INR range clots in 20 to 35 seconds. It's not that big of a difference and bleeding is stopped just like any other time, direct pressure for a little longer. Now should something go majorily wrong and your INR shot up to the moon, Coumadin can be reversed in an emergency with 2 units of plasma or 2mg Vit K IV pushed. You can't do that with Plavix. Plavix simply keeps your platelets from sticking togther to begin to form a clot.
 
Plavix is a blood thinner.
Tanya

Tanya there is no such thing as a blood thinner. They are all anticoagulants. Plavix, Coumadin and Asprin. Plavix keeps the platelets from sticking together to form a clot, Coumadin increases the time it takes to form a clot and Asprin prevents the plateletts from growing the legs it needs to stick together.

Lose the term,"Blood Thinner". The viscosity of your blood is not changed in anyway. It's not like adding water to ketchup, it's still ketchup to ketchup if you get my meaning. ;)

Re reading this sounds like I'm being a jerk. Not what I meant to come off like. Were sensitive to those folks calling it a blood thinner because it gives the illusion that it makes your blood run like water and that's not what it does. Just takes a few more seconds to clot then a normal persons does.
 
What if On-X no Warfarin test works out?

What if On-X no Warfarin test works out?

If the no-warfarin test with artificail valves pans out is there any issue with existing warfarin users coming off and going to the reduced Plavix or asprin routines? Although the warfarin doesn't particularly worry me (I will be having AVR in early 2009 at 56) it would be one less issue to have hanging around:).
Cameron
 
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