Long Post Regarding Beta-Blockers

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MikeHeim

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
709
Location
Minneapolis, MN
About three months ago, I started getting some SOB. It was not the classic SOB in that I would not get winded during exertion, but I would just become very ?aware? of my breathing when I was just sitting around on the couch, talking on the phone, or walking around. At times it felt like I had to manually force myself to breathe and take deeper breaths. Strangely enough, I never had a problem with exercise. In fact exercise (the heavier the better) seemed to make the issue go away. I was also having problems with twinges of chest pain that may have been muscle/skeletal related or heart related. I hadn?t had them before, so I couldn?t imagine why I would suddenly be having sternum problems so long after my surgery.

All of this was occurring at about the time of my 18 month post-op checkup, so I mentioned it to my Cardiologist. I was having an echo done anyway as a part of the checkup, and it came back completely normal. My heart was now back to a ?normal? size, the valve had only trace leakage, and though my valve area was on the small end of the range, it would not classify as stenoic. He said my issues were possibly anxiety related (I was getting married, moving, and changing jobs all within about a two-month span). I took his word for it and went along with life. Two months later I had put all of my life changes in the rear view mirror, but the problem did not really go away. I would have both good and bad days, but never really shook the problem altogether. After moving, I was referred to a new Cardiologist, and I mentioned my issues to him. He had me do both a stress echo and regular echo, and basically confirmed the conclusions of my 18-month checkup.

What he suggested was that it was perhaps time to work my way off of Atenolol. My resting pulse was often in the mid-50?s, which seemed too low. He said that it was possible that the beta-blocker was keeping my HR too low that it couldn?t respond to the stresses of sudden mild exertion or that my heart wasn?t pumping the blood around quickly enough altogether. With heavy exertion, my body had time to adjust, which would explain why I wasn?t getting SOB at those times. He began weaning me off my usual dose of 50mg per day first to 25mg per day, then to 25mg every other day, and then finally off it altogether. The good news is that my SOB seems to have gone away.

After all that, I have a couple comments and questions:

1. Has anyone had a similar issue? I recall people on this site having issues with low BP and dizziness due to beta-blockers, but I don?t recall anyone actually having SOB symptoms.

2. As expected, my HR has risen. My resting HR is now usually around 70-80. Is it reasonable to expect it to lower down to the 60?s or so with time, or do most people have a higher HR after surgery for an indefinite period of time?

3. My HR recovery has become awful. I went running this evening for about 40 minutes. When I finished, my HR was so fast that I couldn?t measure it using my pulse. My best guess is that it was 150-160. Two hours later, my HR is still 92. Is poor HR recovery due only to poor conditioning, or are there other causes? I haven?t been exercising as much as I should lately, but this seems extremely slow to me.

Thanks for any and all replies. :)
 
Beta Blockers are pretty powerful stuff. All this time that you've been taking Atenolol your physiology has adapted to not having enough adrenaline in your system. Now that you are off the BB and go through exertion, your body is going to definitely feel the extra chemicals. Imagine never drinking beer, and then all of a sudden downing 3 all at once, you are going to definitely feel it. I'm no doctor, but as a current BB patient and from what I know, I'd highly recommend slowing down your exercise sessions to compensate. Even though you've been weaned slowly off the medication, I'd imagine you'd still get some pretty dangerous blood pressure spikes during cardio or weight lifting. I know it might be frustrating to start at a level lower than what you're used to, but it may save you a burst blood vessel or worse.

Let your doctor know about how long it takes for your normal heartbeat to come back after exercise, it's possible that if you are getting increases of blood pressure with exercise that you still may need some BB to keep things in control. Be safe.
 
Hi Mike.

I went off my beta blockers last June. They were bothering me in many ways, so I asked my cardio if I could up my Diovan (a different kind of blood pressure med) and go off the BB's. She agreed. My BP is better. My palps have not returned. My achey flu-like symptoms are gone, as are my wild dreams. I think I did have some SOB type feelings from them, too, actually. Frankly, overall, I feel so much better without them. At first my HR was pretty high all the time. I could feel that it was higher. But I was stubborn and did not want to admit that, so I just ignored it.

I was showing off my HR watch to someone the other day, and said, yeah, well, look, see, my resting heartrate is pretty high, but......then lo and behold....it was at 64!! Not the normal 80+ that it had been a few months ago.

So, my very unscientific opinion is that those meds are very powerful. They give them to us for a reason!! We need them when our heart needs the crutch. But if we heal well, maybe we don't need them so much! So please be patient. And go slow. Be nice to your heart. I'll bet in a few months you won't even remember that you had this conversation with us. Just be patient and try to give it some time.

I am trying very hard to be consistent with my exercise. I am way overweight and out of shape. I got this trick little watch with sensors built in to read BP and HR right off the top of the wrist...no chest strap needed. For me...I need to pump things up abit so this watch helps me keep track of how lazy I am. Maybe you should get one for yourself. They are fun!

Let us know how it is going for you.

Marguerite
 
Bb

Bb

Mike, it took me a few months after stopping BB altogether before my running felt almost normal. As others have suggested, a totally unscientific opinion is that it takes some time to get the drugs out of your system, and for your system to adjust to stress (running) without the BB to regulate things.
 
I was started on Toprol XL before AVR to try and control my A-Fib, it did not work. The next drug tried was Amioderone, it did not work. I had Ablation at the same time of my AVR for the A-Fib. The Ablation was successful and the Amioderone was stopped.:) My cardiologist would not hear of stopping the Toprol (100mg) even though I feel like the A-Fib problem is solved. He reduced the dose to 50mg and I felt no difference. I reduced myself to 25mg and am more energetic. Although he was perturbed that I lowered my own dose (I guess I am now labeled non-compliant) he agreed to try it but refused to consider taking me off of it completely:mad: . I don?t think I need to be on it period. It is damn near free with my insurance so it is not a money issue. But I would like to see if I would have more energy if I stopped completely. And by the way, I have no BP issues.

Does anyone know a good reason to stay on the 25mg in my case?
 
My experience with beta blockers

My experience with beta blockers

When I had a-fib (before my surgery), my ex-cardio put me on 100 mg (50 mg twice a day) of Metoprolol a day. I felt horrible. I could barely lift my legs when I walked, and to reply to another thread, yes, I was depressed, but of course I would be depressed if I feel like an invalid.:rolleyes:

Since my HR is rather high normally, my new cardio wanted to put me back on beta blockers and I resisted because of the experience I had. I finally said that I would try them if he gave me the lowest dose that existed and then let me cut that in half! He said O.K. So, I take 25 mg of Metoprolol a day (12½ mg twice a day) and I feel great! It lowers my HR to the 70's which is just fine with me. The only side effect is rather vivid dreams.
 
cooker said:
Does anyone know a good reason to stay on the 25mg in my case?


BECAUSE THE DOCTOR SAID TO!!!!!!

Unfortunately, the medical profession operates on the ?to ere on the side of caution? rulebook. Once a Duck, always a Duck (or CHUMP---ER, CHIMP as the case may be)!!!! :p

You basically have run into the same thing I now live with. This ?buddy? on my shoulder (my trusty AICD) is an example. When it came time to replace it, I asked my Cardio POINT BLANK ?DO I REALLY, REALLY NEED THIS THING ANYMORE????? His answer was ?probably not? BUT (and a BIG BUT) there is no measure available to determine when (or if) a person no longer needs an AICD. There are plenty of criteria established for when you NEED ONE, but nothing definite on NOT needing one anymore. ?Once in, always in? is the rule right now. In MY words, the legal system prevents him from making a judgment call unless he has something (tests, etc.) he can point back to that says the decision to remove and not replace was the correct one. I can make that decision but he can?t. When I got this thing I was less than 30 per cent EF and was a train wreck looking for a place to happen. Now I?m over 50 per cent EF (last Echo) and getting better every day. It has never fired and we both don?t expect it to. But it is there to stay for now.

If he ALLOWED you to stop and the A-Fib came back he?s gotta play catch up to get you back steady as a rock. Of course, it HE stopped it and you didn?t get A-Fib, then YOU would never let him LIVE IT DOWN!!! :p :rolleyes: Although I?m no lawyer, I assume we ALL have the right to REFUSE any treatment, pills or otherwise. There are some exceptions to that rule I?m sure (the TB case comes to mind). He probably has an ?AGAINST MY ADVICE? red stamp ready for your records anyway!!! :eek:

Of course, you could always Cardio shop until you found one that would TAKE you off, but then watch out for what his/her pet pill might be. :eek:

HIGHJACK THREAD RELEASE BUTTON PUSHED!!!

May God Bless,

Danny :)
 
Mike, maybe you need a really low dose of something like metoprolol/Toprolol, 25 mg twice a day seems to be enough to calm the heart. Maybe this is something to discuss with your doc.

Adrienne, I was also given 50mg twice a day in hospital....I warned them that it would be too much, but who am I to know myself better than all those highly educated heart specialists.;) :D
Now I'm taking the 25mg and also taking splits of 12.5mg...no problems, but its about those wild dreams.

And why the heck can't we get a 25 or 50 mg extended release version in Canada???
 
Bina said:
And why the heck can't we get a 25 or 50 mg extended release version in Canada???

Now that you mention it, that's a good question. Actually, I've never asked my cardiologist about it, but I will. I notice that at the end of each 12-hour period, my HR goes up a bit (nothing to worry about, but an extended-release pill would keep it steadier).
 
MikeHeim said:
My resting HR is now usually around 70-80.

3. My HR recovery has become awful. I went running this evening for about 40 minutes. When I finished, my HR was so fast that I couldn’t measure it using my pulse. My best guess is that it was 150-160. Two hours later, my HR is still 92.

Mike, the above has been exactly my experience ever since MV repair over 5 years ago. It can't be lack of conditioning; I train all the time (> 20 hours/week prior to Ironman events). I can hit 150-160 running at a 10 min/mile pace. I have never been on meds to limit my heart rate, although beta blockers like atenolol seem to be common protocol. :confused:

Have you ever had any problems with asthhma? Beta blockers can narrow your airways and trigger SOB in asthmatics, particularly at higher doses.

Q's for you, Mike: Do you have increased speed or stamina while running w/ reduced beta blocker dosage? I'm curious about performance and BB's. Also, what's your understanding of the bad thing that is supposed to happen to me bedause I don't have my HR artificially slowed by a BB?

Thanks
 
BillCobit said:
Mike, the above has been exactly my experience ever since MV repair over 5 years ago. It can't be lack of conditioning; I train all the time (> 20 hours/week prior to Ironman events). I can hit 150-160 running at a 10 min/mile pace. I have never been on meds to limit my heart rate, although beta blockers like atenolol seem to be common protocol. :confused:

Have you ever had any problems with asthhma? Beta blockers can narrow your airways and trigger SOB in asthmatics, particularly at higher doses.

Q's for you, Mike: Do you have increased speed or stamina while running w/ reduced beta blocker dosage? I'm curious about performance and BB's. Also, what's your understanding of the bad thing that is supposed to happen to me bedause I don't have my HR artificially slowed by a BB?

Thanks

I don't have answers, but I am reading this thread with great interest. I too am interested in the questions Bill has asked.
I find that a sudden burst of exertion leaves me breathless and my heart racing, but if I take my time, I can swim/walk for fairly long periods of time. However, it takes an awfully long time for my HR to drop afterwards.
I was on Toprol XL for about 6 months to reduce my heartrate, but the side effects weren't worth it. I do feel better, and my rate is slowly decreasing, but I also worry about the longterm effects.
 
Bill and Mary-
I have not ever been diagnosed with asthma. Very interesting information, however, and I guess it is another possibility. So far, I have not been able to notice any increase in speed or stamina without the beta blockers. Obviously this is something I plan on keeping close track of with time. I certainly do not have the same level of stamina that I had pre-surgery, but I have no idea if that has to do with the surgery or the drugs (or a combination). My heart has returned to "normal" size, so it's not obvious to me why I would still have any HR issues. Also, to be perfectly honest, prior to my surgery I didn't measure my HR at all - so I have nothing to really compare my workout HR, resting HR, or HR recovery to.

As far as not being on them altogether, my Cardiologist explained to me that beta-blockers would act almost like a governor on a car engine. It would stop me from both hitting extremely high HR's, as well as temper spikes in HR or blood pressure. Basically it reduces the amount of stress on your heart muscle. Does it matter long-term? I have no idea, but hopefully somebody else does.

To chime in on some other discussion above, Atenolol (and I would assume other beta-blockers), are pretty long-acting as they are. My Cardio said that Atenolol, specifically, has a half-life in your body of about five days. However, this doesn't exactly jive with what I experienced when I was on higher dosages. If I ever forgot a dose, I could typically tell something was wrong within about 4-5 hours. At the time, I believe I was taking 100mg per day. Who knows...
 
MikeHeim said:
As far as not being on them altogether, my Cardiologist explained to me that beta-blockers would act almost like a governor on a car engine. It would stop me from both hitting extremely high HR's, as well as temper spikes in HR or blood pressure. Basically it reduces the amount of stress on your heart muscle.

My doc had the thought of putting me on an ACE inhibitor to reduce workload on my heart. My BP was already low, and the ACEI made me feel like the zookeeper shot me with a tranquilizer gun. We abandoned that strategy pretty quickly because I had a hard time remaining upright, nevermind reducing workload while I exercised.

I asked him about the following article; his take was that this is a correlation vs. a causal relationship, with no evidence that reducing HR with drugs reduced risk. I have never found any articles that support or refute that opinion, but maybe I'll start looking again.


Sudden Death in Healthy Men Can Be Predicted by Heart Rate
Review
PARIS, May 11-Even in this city in the springtime, a Frenchman's heart that beats too fast at rest is a powerful predictor of sudden death, researchers here have reported.
A study of 5,713 French men without known or suspected cardiovascular disease found that those with resting heart rates of more than 75 beats per minute had a 3.5-fold increase in risk of sudden death compared with men who had a resting heart rate of fewer than 60 beats per minute.
And men who had a less than optimum increase in heart rate during exercise had 4.0 times the risk of sudden death, 1.2 times the risk of nonsudden death, and 1.5 times the risk of death from any cause, Xavier Jouven, M.D., Ph.D., and colleagues of the University of Paris reported in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine.
Moreover, men who take longer to recover from exercise, specifically those whose heart rate recovery is fewer than 25 beats per minute, had 2.1 times the risk of sudden death than men whose hearts recover at a rate of 40 beats per minute.
The increased risks were independent of other risk factors including age, smoking history, level of physical activity, exercise duration during standard bicycle exercise test, history of diabetes, body mass index, systolic blood pressure, cholesterol level, and parental history of sudden death or myocardial infarction.
Noting that the heart-response is controlled by the autonomic nervous system, Dr. Jouven said the "data support the concept that abnormalities in autonomic balance may precede manifestations of cardiovascular disease and may contribute to the early identification of persons at high risk for sudden death."
For apparently healthy men who have similar abnormal heart rate profiles, "a possible therapeutic approach might be the correction of the autonomic imbalance. In addition to traditional management of cardiovascular risk factors, initiation of a regular exercise-training program should be recommended," Dr. Jouven and colleagues wrote.
The findings come from the Paris Prospective Study I, which recruited men employed by the Paris Civil Service. Recruitment was conducted from 1967 to 1972 when the men were ages 42 to 53. The study enrolled 7,746 men, and the vital status of all but 355 subjects (4.6% from the original 7,746) could be determined at the end of study follow-up in January 1994. This latest analysis includes data on 5,713 men, all of whom underwent electrocardiographic and physical examinations at baseline.
All men underwent a standard 10-minute bicycle exercise test with three successive workloads -- two minutes at 82 W, six minutes at 164 W, and the last two minutes at 191 W, with no cool-down period. Cardiac rhythm was continuously monitored during testing.
Heart rate was measured at rest, before exercise, every two minutes during exercise, at peak exercise and every minute during recovery. Men who had an ischemic changes on EKG and those who failed to achieve 80% of predicted maximum heart rate during exercise (defined as 220 beats per minute minus age) were excluded from the analysis. The mean follow-up was 23 years.
Among the findings:
? There were 1,516 deaths during follow-up including 400 cardiac deaths of which 81 were sudden deaths and 129 were nonsudden deaths from myocardial infarction.
? Men in the highest quintile for resting heart rate (>75 beats a minute) had a risk for sudden death (relative risk, 3.92; 95% confidence interval 1.91-8.0) that was 3.5 times higher than men in the lowest quintile for resting heart rate (<60 beats a minute) (P for trend <0.001).
? Compared with the highest quintile (113 beats per minute) men with a heart rate increase of fewer than 89 beats per minute during exercise (relative risk, 6.18; 95% confidence interval, 1.02 to 4.74) had 4.0 times the risk of sudden death.
The authors concluded that the "heart rate profile during exercise and recovery is a powerful predictor of the risk of sudden death in asymptomatic men?These findings may have clinical implications in terms of early identification of high-risk subjects and raise the possibility of primary prevention."
Primary source: New England Journal of Medicine
Source reference:
Jourven X et al. Heart-Rate Profile during Exercise as a Predictor of Sudden Death. N Engl J Med. 2005; 352:1951-8.
________________________________________



 
Dear Mike,

I am weaning off Toprol. I was taking 100mg, then 50 for half a year, and now I am down to 25. Next week I do 25 every other day for two weeks before I stop. I did a beta blocker search and found your post. I too, was sometimes SOB as I exercised and transitioned from a warm up to a more fat burning and cardio range. I found this SOB as I walked my dog up a hill at the start of my walk. Once I was past 65% of my maximum heat rate, I "flew" through my work out which includes elliptical, treadmill, and spinning (cycling) classes. Some days I wanted to stop my work out because of the SOB during the first few minutes.I am also back to weight training to build up my upper body strenth again. For anyone reading this, listen to your body and be careful with chest weights. ( I find assisted dips and chin ups, and modified push ups helpful).

I have noticed, like yourself, that my heart rate has a new baseline of about 66-76 BPM, instead of the usual 55. Furthermore, to my intial alarm, my recovery following exercise is much longer, with my heart rate hanging out in the low 90s for a while. I think that pulse rate recovery is dependent upon the duration and intensity of exercise. I am going to be patient with this process, because the benefits of being off the beta blocker. I may have to increase my ace inhibitor if my BP goes up later on. In regards to your question whether resting heart rate will adjust to lower baseline, I am not a doctor but I think it will. One factor may be the heart function before surgery. Our hearts have been through repair, we have taken medicine to calm and protect the heart, and now we have taken the safeguard away. The heart has to learn to regulate itself again without the beta blocker.

In regards to sensation of sternum "twinges of pain", if your doctor has ruled out anything heart related, it could be a number of things. The pain could be from using chest or other muscles that have tightened during exercise and you need to stretch or massage them, it could be due to how the chest has healed and , oddly enough, sometimes the weather. It is probably best to ask your doctor why you are getting these twinges of discomfort.
Good luck with your continued recovery!
Allan
 
Bubba
If you have a minute come on over to the icdsupportgroup.org site and have a seat. We could use some redneck humor injected into the posts.
Kathleen or Kathy B over there



gadgetman said:
Them dreams might be fum yer exposure t'VR.COM Darlin'

Bubba
:)
 

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