Aneurysm or Aneurysmal?

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In the chapter on ascending aortic aneurysms in the text "Cardiac Surgery in the Adult" (available online at ctsnet.org) it mentions pain can be acute or it can be ongoing and dull. It also mentions hoarseness being found in those with aneurysm of the arch or descending aorta closest to it.

I encourage everyone to read this chapter!

Lowering blood pressure can remove stress from the aortic wall and relieve symptoms. This can be deceptive in the ER, because the pain goes away but no one knows why unless they look at the aorta.

Pain or other symptoms from the aorta can range rather widely. The aorta is vital to life, and it should always be examined when there are symptoms in the chest - I hope the day when that is a reality will be very soon. It will save lives.

The decision of when each individual needs surgery needs to be carefully made by that person in conjunction with a surgeon whose judgment is based on knowledge built over many years about what can be a highly unpredictable diseased aorta in the chest.


Best wishes,
Arlyss
 
Dear Ruth,

What you have just posted is of great concern to me. Bicuspids are the healthiest, most vibrant people I know, and it works against them because they are not taken seriously.

You are listening to your body and instinctively avoiding anything that can bring on that pain/discomfort. In the short term, the other thing is what PJ wrote about blood pressure. Are you taking anything for it? It can lower the stress on the wall of the aorta, and the hope is it can give at least some protection from tearing.

Sometimes people are embarrassed to go to the ER - for all those who may read this, never feel that way, clearly state you have an aneurysm in your chest, and insist on a CT with contrast. If there is no dissection, they can at the very least help you with your blood pressure. And then find an aortic surgeon as soon as possible!

You have my best, most positive thoughts that you will be safe until you get the help you need.
Arlyss
 
rutho said:
My chest pain is becoming more and more heavy. It is as if Mr.P described, a heavy feeling, a feeling that something is ripping in my heart. It is not "Stop everything" but is becoming more and more a part of my day and it truly concerns me. THe last three weeks are different - much different. Normally I am exercising, yoga, etc., and I have stopped all of it. I just know something is not right.

What you are describing now is how I felt 3 months before mine blew. I realize now that that is when it started to dissect and they totally missed it. They kept me in the hospital, ran tests, and then set me free 3 days later. 3 months later, the whole thing hit like a freight train that made no noise. How can they miss it after running a catheterization right through it? I don't know, but they did. I was 33 at the time. I suspect they dismissed it because of my age.

Sorry, but I truly feel you need to see someone else and see them soon.
 
Rutho your situation is very similar to mine.

I have asked my cardiologists about pain and they both said that constant pain,that feels like an ache can only be caused by the aorta pushing against the sternum and this would show on the CT scan.

The pain I get both of them have said it is stress and anxiety.When I relax the pain does subside a little,so I think it must be something to do with it.I am a worrier as well and I know the pain is hard to deal with.

I too have asked over and over again but all the medical experts tell me the pain is not heart related.The only difference between me and you as pjmrunner points out is the mod to severe regurgitation you have.Does your cardio think this could be causing your pain?

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

Paul
 
Thanks!

Thanks!

Paul,

The Cardiologist has not mentioned ANY REASON for my chest pain. I have quite a long list of questions for her (thanks to you guys).

The chest pain I've been experiencing for the past three weeks is not something I can sweep to the curb. I am not going to ignore it until I figure out what is wrong. I just need to know "why" and "what level is acceptable" as a BAV-er. I will be sure to post and let you know what I find out.

Thank you again for your help!

Ruth
 
My chest pain is becoming more and more heavy.....a heavy feeling, a feeling that something is ripping in my heart.

My symptoms also included a "ripping" feeling in my heart area, although no dissection was found. In addition to chest pains described earlier, I also had an intermittent cough several times a day for at least a month or two prior to surgery, and this cough was no longer present post surgery. I believe this cough was caused by pressure on my trachea. The following summary of symptoms from Stanford Hospital may be helpful to some:

Thoracic aortic aneurysms may be asymptomatic (without symptoms) or symptomatic (with symptoms). Symptoms of a thoracic aneurysm may be related to the location, size, and growth rate of the aneurysm.

Severe onset of pain associated with a thoracic aneurysm may be a sign of a life-threatening medical emergency.

Symptoms of an ascending thoracic aneurysm may include, but are not limited to, the following:

pain in the chest, neck, and/or back
swelling of head, neck, and arms as a result of pressure on large blood vessels
heart failure - an ascending aneurysm may affect the heart valves, causing blood to back up into the heart

Symptoms of an aortic arch aneurysm or a descending thoracic aneurysm may include, but are not limited to, the following:

wheezing, coughing, or shortness of breath as a result of pressure on the trachea (windpipe)
coughing up blood (hemoptysis)
hoarseness as a result of pressure on the vocal cords
difficulty swallowing (dysphagia) due to pressure on the esophagus
pain in the chest and/or back

The symptoms of a thoracic aortic aneurysm may resemble other conditions. Consult your physician for a diagnosis.
 
When an aortic dilatation/aneurysm is present and there are ANY symptoms in the chest, it should be taken very seriously.

What is known is based on statistics and experience with previous patients. The people who have kept the statistics and written the few texts that I am aware of about the aorta in the chest are surgeons, because the only answer to the diseased aorta is surgery.

There are many factors that go into the decision when surgery should be done, and any symptoms in the chest are a very major factor. Symptoms will over ride size, because even a "small" aorta may tear in some people. Somtimes the aorta "calms down" with blood pressure control and that can buy some time, but that decision should ONLY be made by a skilled aortic surgeon.

Ross had symptoms that went unrecognized until the moment he suffered a life-threatening tearing. Mr. P had symptoms, and no one knows how much longer he had before his aorta would have torn or ruptured.

Some people's first symptom is just hours or moments before their death.

When people are told this pain in not "heart" related it is technically true. The pain in not coming from the heart. It is associated with the aorta. Those who have these warning signs are in one sense better off than those with a silent aneurysm, but only if someone pays attention to them and they find the expertise they need. Mild symptoms do not mean someone is not close to a life-threatening event.

While not wanting to frighten, it is important for everyone to know how much is at stake.

Best wishes to all,
Arlyss
 
I have a cough which I have no control over. It's a shortness of breath sort of cough.

I am taking this very seriously and I truly appreciate your posts!

I will let you know what I find out.
 
rutho said:
I have a cough which I have no control over. It's a shortness of breath sort of cough.

I am taking this very seriously and I truly appreciate your posts!

I will let you know what I find out.

My turn to pile on :D

Most of what has been said above in terms of chest pain I experienced as well. Now you mention this cough, yes, I had the same thing.

I was 38 when I started having symptoms (I had been going annually for about 15 years for echo's) it started as a dull ache that would come and go and I had a lack of energy, I started to struggle through my normal ride, the chest pain got worse, I started losing my voice all the time, started getting very sharp stabbing pains that I could only describe as someone putting a knife through my chest that came out the back near the left shoulder blade and then was twisted around, then I started getting pain in my left side and of course that annoying cough that just wouldn't go away. My cardio (fired!) kept telling me it was muscular, the new cardio checked my symptoms and tests and sent me to the surgeon. I have not had any chest pain since.

Yes the chest pain could be related to something else but they better be able to prove it.
 
A cough. Yes, ditto here. It's funny but I don't think I've ever read the cough as a symptom but many Valvers here have mentioned that ominous pre-op cough which was gone post-op. I didn't cough all of the time though. Just on my bad days, which became more and more frequent and worse in duration.
 
I agree with what everyone says here about the pain being taken seriously.My chest pain (ache) does increase with stress and I have had it for over a year.Both cardiologists said the only pain I can possibly get from an aneurysm is
1 It is tearing or rupturing.
2 It is pushing against the sternum
.
Both were adamant about this and both checked my CT scan and said neither is the case with me.I have to believe this I have pushed and pushed all the medical experts I have spoken to and they all say the pain is nothing to do with my heart or aneurysm.

Unlike Rutho I have no shortness of breath or a cough.I love running (very gently now)and I can run with no discomfort and I can feel get worse when I worry about it.It is a horrible circle I am in,I worry the pain comes then I worry about the pain.

The thing I can't understand is that I have had this ache for over a year now, it is not getting any worse, slightly better if anything, and nothing has happened. It subsides considerably when I can relax. Would you think discomfort from the aorta can go on this long?

Paul
 
I have not personally experienced an aneurysm, for which I am entirely grateful.

I'm not a medical professional, but from watching the site for a long time, seeing how things turn out for people, and from what reading I have done, I would like to chime in with some observations and thoughts...

-There is no "safe zone" for aneurysms. Anything over 4.5 in a person with a bicuspid AV must be treated as suspect. Call it what you will, it should be viewed as an aneurysm.

-Women's symptoms are usually different from men's (women often experience angina as jaw pain), which doctors still allow to interfere with diagnoses.

-Women's symptoms are not recognized or are routinely brushed aside by doctors, as they don't match the list of symptoms (generated by studies done on men), or are attributed to some vague form of hysteria that is mystically and unscientifically ascribed to the nature of femininity.

- Men are equal to or worse than women as hypochondria goes. Probably worse. They're just less public about it. Practitioners of medicine should get over that.

-Cardiologists recognize that women generally have a smaller frame and skin surface area than men, and some will encourage women to wait until their aortic annulus is a frightening .6cm or less before surgery, sometimes at the cost of permanent heart damage or extended, arrhythmia-laden recoveries, whereas men become surgery-ready at .9cm. Yet those same cardiologists judge aortic enlargement danger in women by using the same scale they use for men (usually 5.0cm or 5.5cm). They also judge ventricular hypertrophy (enlargement) using the same standards for women as men, even though they realize that most women's hearts start out smaller than most men's.

-Under no circumstances would it make sense for you undergo surgery for your valve and not have your ascending aorta repaired/replaced at that time. It would likely enlarge swifty or even dissect within a year after the surgery disturbed it. That is a highly recurrent theme in similar surgeries.

- I don't know what the best test is for layer separation in the aorta, but I believe you should have it.

- Under no circumstances should you agree to an exercise stress test.

- At this point, if you have to grunt to pick it up, don't pick it up. Avoid doing things that cause you to bend over a lot, such as picking things up off the floor, lacing boots, etc. Don't hold your breath when you do pick things up or try to do something that takes a physical effort - breathe through it instead.

-The excessive motion and stroke force caused by ventricular hypertrophy tend to accelerate aneurysm growth (dilation, enlargement, whatever term you choose) and aggravate any layer separation that might be present. You don't mention VH, but it's likely to be there or in development with moderate-to-severe aortic regurgitation (insufficiency).

- You are tall, slender, bicuspid, and have aortic expansion. That is a combination of physical happenstance that bears placing greater emphasis on and credence in any symptoms you display.

I believe your doctors are responding appropriately to the sizes and symptoms as they see them. But I'm not convinced those parameters are correct for you personally, based on your descriptions.

As I mentioned above, I believe your ascending aorta should be specifically tested for layer separations. I just don't know the best test for it. A second opinion makes great sense at this time.

This is going to sound ridiculous after the rest of this post, but really don't go crazy over the possibilities at this time. The odds are in your favor that your aorta is going to last until your valve surgery becomes necessary. This is just intended to address my personal opinions about what you've written, and my desire to be sure you take the proper precautions to ensure that the aortic enlargement is not dangerous at this time. (Which we all realize you are trying to do.)

Being bicuspid and young, you are unlikely to be having angina from blocked arteries (large or small). You may have some secondary pulmonary hypertension, which is commeon before valve surgery. It may well be, however, from your aortic regurgitation, which can certainly cause angina pain, which varies highly by individual. Leave yourself open to that possibility, but please get another opinion and a more definitive test if possible.

Very best wishes,
 
The thing I can't understand is that I have had this ache for over a year now, it is not getting any worse, slightly better if anything, and nothing has happened. It subsides considerably when I can relax. Would you think discomfort from the aorta can go on this long?

PToddy, Yes, I would think that quite possible and it sounds very similar to my own report of chest pain with elevated blood pressure.

If you don't have a blood pressure cuff, buy one and monitor your blood pressure. Take it once in the morning after you're up and about and once in the evening before you go to bed and any time you feel that ache. See if you see a correlation between elevated blood pressure and the chest ache. BAV's are very prone to labile hypertension--that is high blood pressure induced by emotional or physical stress. It is not talked about a lot but it is very dangerous, especially to those of us sporting aneurysms.

I'm not sure if you said you are on medications--I apologize for not searching thoroughly--but it usually takes a beta blocker and an ace inhibitor to properly control BAV blood pressure. And the standard, "120/80" is still too high if you can possibly get it lower and tolerate it that way. (It can take some getting used to at first.) The aim should be more on the order of <110/<80, the systolic number being most important. Don't assume that because you've never had a high reading at the doctors office (I never did before I was diagnosed) your blood pressure is under control. After I got my cuff and got a bit obsessive about using it I found if I got really stressed I got readings as high as the low 200's over the low 100's!:eek:
 
Perhaps the sharp, knife-like chest pain incidents some of us experienced were not afterall due to stretching or tearing of the aortic medial layer but instead a result of several other combined variables, such as enlargement of the ascending aorta coupled with left ventricular hypertrophy, increased regurgitation severity, including peak regurgitation backflows and concomitant decreased oxygenated blood flow through coronary ateries (even squeeky clean ones) during these peak backflows through the aortic valve, and sharp chest pains lasted only a second or a few seconds until the oxygenated blood flow again normalized in the coronary arteries. This may explain differences in symptoms between those with ascending aortic aneurysms with moderate to severe regurgitation compared with those with AAA and mild regurgitation vs. those with AAA and an already replaced BAV w/ properly functioning mechanical or tissue valves.

What do you think ptoddy and tobaqotwo and others? Does this theory seem reasonable?
 
PJMomrunner- I take 50mg Atenolol daily to control my BP which remains between 100-110 systolic but when I am at the cardios office it is a lot higher. So I take your point about labile hypertension. I have measure my BP when I have the pain, on several occasions and my BP remains low so the pain in my situation does not appear to be linked to my BP. My pain is much more linked to my stress levels but I can't understand how this could be linked to my aneurysm. I get stressed and I get a pain all over my chest and upper stomach, it is more like an ache. I relax and it goes away somewhat but not completely.


Mr P- I can only speak for myself and my pain is more of an ache, which I think is stress induced. My BAV according to my cardio has no regurgitation or leakage and is working well as is the rest of my heart.

I just want to make the point again that both cardiologists have told me the only way you get pain from an ascending aortic aneurysm is by it pushing on the sternum or it tearing or rupturing. Both of these would show up on our CT scans. That is why cardiologists and surgeons rule out the pain coming from the aorta.

Thanks everyone
 
Sorry PJMomrunner meant to put this in previous post, I notice that you do a little bit of running. I do too and the pain goes away completely when I run. I know that when you run it elevates your BP, so when you run do you get more pain because BP definitely rises when running. I have measured mine directly after stopping running and it is usuallly 135 but it quickly returms to 110.
 
PToddy - I have only run a few times since deciding to run again. (My surgeon forbade it, several cardiologists said running was fine and a highly respected surgeon I consulted said it was okay as long as I kept my resting systolic BP no higher than 110. For two years I went with my surgeon's restriction because, well, "in for a penny in for a pound"--if I'm gonna trust him I should trust him all the way, right? But I decided I was miserable not running--not to mention fat--and my BP is under great control, so why not?) Anyway, the one time I checked, my BP was 111 over something right after running. I can't really say what I feel in my chest when I run--I feel something--pressure, I guess, but I am able to disregard it (meaning it doesn't give me pause or cause me concern).

Now you've inspired me to go get on the dreadmill. I'll ponder it whilst I run!:D
 
I agree with Ross that a visit to another surgeon is the best plan of action. It also could be an esophagul problem as mine was. A month ago I had severe stabbing chest pains that sent me to the ER. After many tests were done, I was diagnosed with spasms in the esophagus and after having my esophagus stretched, I am much better. Best of luck to you.

Alicia
 
Ruth's chest pain does NOT include sharp stabbing pains but instead, as she's described it, more of a heavy feeling. Others and I experienced sharp knifelike chest pains (in addition to a "fullness" or "heavy feeling"). I was merely offering a hypothesis as to why some of us experienced these sharp chest pains prior to resection of ascending aortic aneurysm and leaky BAV replacement, and after surgery, this pain was no longer present.
And there's no doubt in my mind that my chest pain was indeed a direct result of my BAV and aneurysm.....no cardiologist will convince me otherwise....I lived with it and have firsthand experience. It'd be nice if there was a crisp way to view this "chest pain" in a CT scan, but unfortunately in my case and others in this forum, this was not the case.
Best,
MrP
 
rachel_howell said:
I pray for the day when none of us needs to know more than our doctors do about BAV and aortic aneurysms. It seems to me that ignorance on the part of the medical profession in this area is what underlies the contentiousness of a lot of these threads. Someone will post a query, another member will respond with the latest research findings, and then a third person will argue that member #2 can't know what he is talking about, because member #3's heart surgeon or cardiologist disputes it. Well, there are a lot of uninformed heart doctors out there. Sad but true. Every day we hear of patients who were told by their doctors that they don't have an aneurysm, just a dilated aorta, or that their aneurysm is "stable" at 4.9 cm, or whatever. I won't even mention any of the other silly things I read, because undoubtedly I will say something that someone believes for dear life, and they will pull out the flamethrower.


I'll give you an "Amen"! on this. I was just thinking, while reading this thread yesterday, that the aneurysm issue seems to parallel the warfarin issue in the medical community. Lots of people with different levels of knowledge giving difinitive information - or so they think.
 

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