Warfarin Dose based on genetics?

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tommy

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Just came across this Yahoo news article.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070112/ap_on_he_me/genetic_medicine_1

It appears that there is a lot of activity in trying to tie down the dose and reduce (the cost of) testing.

I applaud the research, but will hold my enthusiasm about outcomes a bit. My concern is that the article doesn't mention variability in diet and exercise. The doc from the Mayo clinic seems to grasp the complication as well.

Still, it will be interesting to see what happens.
 
DNA Tests to find warfarin dose

DNA Tests to find warfarin dose

Here is the article from AP in the Washington Times Jan 13

TRENTON, N.J. (AP) -- Personalized medicine, the tailored treatments that a few patients now get based on their own DNA, is finally headed for the masses: the many heart patients at risk of deadly blood clots.
At least 2 million Americans with an abnormal, clot-triggering heart rhythm take the pill warfarin, also sold as Coumadin.
Getting too little can lead to a stroke, and too much can cause life-threatening bleeding. To find the right dose for each patient, doctors use trial and error -- and the errors lead to tens of thousands of hospitalizations and deaths every year.
Starting this month, about 1,000 patients who have a condition known as atrial fibrillation will take part in a project that will match their Coumadin dose to their specific genetic needs.
This genetic fingerprinting should single out the many people whose bodies break down warfarin faster or slower than normal, and their doctors can immediately adjust their dosage to prevent dangerous complications.
"Twenty (percent) to 30 percent of people are either very fast or very slow" to metabolize many drugs but don't know it, said Dr. Robert Epstein, chief medical officer at prescription benefit manager Medco Health Solutions of Franklin Lakes, N.J., which is collaborating in the effort with the Mayo Clinic, based in Rochester, Minn.
Meanwhile, the federal government and researchers at Harvard University and elsewhere have begun or are planning similar studies.
Dr. Epstein and other specialists say the warfarin projects comprise the first broad use of personalized medicine, or targeted therapy, in which a person's genetic makeup is used to pick the best medicine or dose. This approach essentially adjusts for differences in body chemistry that explain why one pain reliever or allergy pill works great for you but not for your mother.
"It's a big deal," said Edward Abrahams of the Personalized Medicine Coalition, which includes industry, government and patient advocacy groups as well as insurers and research centers. "Warfarin is a very widely used drug, it's been around for 50 years and it has all these adverse events associated with it."
If the warfarin studies are successful, patients will start demanding personalized medicine, he predicted. Insurers will, too, if the Medco study proves it saves money and protects patients.
That's fairly likely, given Medco data showing that if patients have their warfarin dose changed more than once -- meaning doctors didn't get it right the first two tries -- their risk of being hospitalized for complications jumps from 20 percent to 31 percent.
Dr. Epstein said he's hit "a home run" with his pitch to get employers and insurance companies sponsoring the prescription plans to join the study.
"Everyone we've talked to unanimously was in," said Dr. Epstein, who expects the reduction in medical costs will be triple the test price of a few hundred dollars per patient.
He noted a couple dozen companies already are developing commercial tests for variations in the two genes crucial in warfarin dosing, the ones in the new studies.
A November 2006 report by the American Enterprise Institute-Brookings Joint Center predicts using genetic information to prescribe warfarin would save an estimated $1.1 billion in U.S. health care spending each year, while preventing about 17,000 strokes and 85,000 serious bleeding incidents.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Copyright The Washington Times
 
Very interesting statement:

If the warfarin studies are successful, patients will start demanding personalized medicine, he predicted. Insurers will, too, if the Medco study proves it saves money and protects patients.That's fairly likely, given Medco data showing that if patients have their warfarin dose changed more than once -- meaning doctors didn't get it right the first two tries -- their risk of being hospitalized for complications jumps from 20 percent to 31 percent.

We all have our dosages changed more than once - at least most of us. Unless they are referring to the initial try at stabilizing INR and not tweaking doses to keep things stable.
 
geebee said:
Very interesting statement:

If the warfarin studies are successful, patients will start demanding personalized medicine, he predicted. Insurers will, too, if the Medco study proves it saves money and protects patients.That's fairly likely, given Medco data showing that if patients have their warfarin dose changed more than once -- meaning doctors didn't get it right the first two tries -- their risk of being hospitalized for complications jumps from 20 percent to 31 percent.

We all have our dosages changed more than once - at least most of us. Unless they are referring to the initial try at stabilizing INR and not tweaking doses to keep things stable.
Isn't it though? I don't know a single person yet that started with a dose that wasn't tweaked a few times and we all know that you have to tweak from time to time. I really don't think this situation is going to work out, but it might because of the ignorance going on with Coumadin.
 
Genetic testing?

Genetic testing?

Thanks for posting this thought-provoking article.

This article could be put to the very best use by providing every cardiac surgeon and every mechanical valver embarking on ACT as a teaching aid.

Patients need to be informed of just what ACT entails.

Gene therapy might work and that would be great.

Warfarin being warfarin I doubt it.
 
I'll be interested in Al Lodwick's thoughts on this item.

In the meantime ... I'm holding my thoughts. I tend to be a skeptic, particularly when it comes to articles in the mass media, rather than in medical journals. Guess it's because of 35 years of being in the newspaper business.....
 
I can see this being a better approach for initial dosing than the "suck it and see" method used at the moment. What I can't see it helping with is people (like me) who are stable on the same dose for several months, and then shoot up to a much higher INR over the space of a week for no obvious reason.
My worst example was going from 4.3 to 7.3 in a week, although I've had smaller jumps more often. Of course, my INR may well have come down just as fast as it went up - with no dose change, but I've certainly never dared try that :eek:
 
So far the warfarin testing has only been able to predict the starting dose. almost everyone came out to need 4 or 5 mg. This is what I almost always start people out at anyway.

If it can convince some people to not use 10 mg doses to start it may have a niche.

It will be expensive and may take more than a day to get the results back. Will the start of warfarin be delayed by a day? I doubt it. So many will just ignore the test and use their own systems. It doesn't seem that insurers will want to pay for an expensive (compared to a PT/INR) test that will keep the patients in the hospital a day longer.

I think that it is a small step but it is getting too much hype.

In a program last month, one of the speakers who has been doing research ended the presentation with the question, "Will this be useful"? It is probably too
 
Start over 70 2.5mg.

Start over 70 2.5mg.

Personal experience and then a review of the literature says that you should start patients over 70 years of age post mechanical valve replacement at 2.5 mg/day and work up if necessary from there.
 
I agree with that. All of the valve replacements are done at the other hospital in town, so I never start fresh vr people on warfarin.
 
From the article..............
That's fairly likely, given Medco data showing that if patients have their warfarin dose changed more than once ? meaning doctors didn't get it right the first two tries ? their risk of being hospitalized for complications jumps from 20 percent to 31 percent.

"Everyone we've talked to unanimously was in," said Epstein, who expects the reduction in medical costs will be triple the test price of a few hundred dollars per patient.

A November 2006 report by the American Enterprise Institute-Brookings Joint Center predicts using genetic information to prescribe warfarin would save an estimated $1.1 billion in U.S. health care spending each year, while preventing about 17,000 strokes and 85,000 serious bleeding incidents.

This sounds like there's expectation that genetics will replace more than the initial dose. Sounds like hogwash to me.




This genetic fingerprinting should single out the many people whose bodies break down warfarin faster or slower than normal, and their doctors can immediately adjust their dosage to prevent dangerous complications.
So those patients aren't being tested already? Would someone really change a dose based on genetics when the INR result is what matters anyway?



Getting too little can lead to a stroke, and too much can cause life-threatening bleeding. To find the right dose for each patient, doctors use trial and error ? and the errors lead to tens of thousands of hospitalizations and deaths every year.
So we're to trust genetic test above a blood stick? Are the hospitalizations and deaths due to bad management of trial and error, or simply bad management or other factors.



This genetic fingerprinting should single out the many people whose bodies break down warfarin faster or slower than normal, and their doctors can immediately adjust their dosage to prevent dangerous complications.
How would you like to be a part of this study......an immediate adjustment based on genetics!...........How about an immediate adjustment based on blood sticks?



TRENTON, N.J. - Personalized medicine, the tailored treatments that a few patients now get based on their own DNA, is finally headed for the masses: the many heart patients at risk of deadly blood clots.
Headed for the masses? If we clotters were the "masses", we'd have simple tests like the diabetics have. And/or we'd have something more convenient than warfarin. Heck, Roche can't find it's way out of a paper bag over defective strips. "Masses my a**". (sorry couldn't resist the rhyme)

Sounds like the writer is promoting personalized medicine, but picked a poor example to plead the case.

Okay, I'll settle down now.
 
Tom:

I agree with you!

If I remember correctly, the study involves a-fib patients. I believe that 2.0-3.0 INR is the general range for a-fib patients.

The article commented that this would help the 20-30% of people whose genetic makeup metabolizes warfarin either faster or slower than others.

What about the 70-80% who metabolize warfarin at a "normal" rate? Would doctors be running an expensive, new genetics test on them?

Since I was chained to the house this weekend because of the nasty weather, I re-read parts of Harold McGee's "On Food and Cooking." McGee is a scientist in California and his book is about food chemistry. I looked over the vitamin K info, and there he has that our bodies produce 50% of our vitamin K needs. (A figure we've seen here before.)
So, what I want to know is ....

Suppose they do devise a genetics test for the "masses," will that genetics test factor in how healthy our GI tract (where vitamin K is produced) is functioning, any additional OTC/Rx drugs we take, our activity levels, etc.

I don't think so. There will still be a vital need for competent ACT managers -- like Al Lodwick and many other Al Lodwicks throughout the world. This also points to a vital need for home-testing and self-management of dosing, hoping that most patients are capable of doing that.

One question: Are all diabetics on insulin injections capable of daily testing and adjusting their insulin as needed?
 

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