Experience w/ Coumadin?

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Jiddo said:
Is it possible they are testing so frequently now because they are trying to stablize his INR level?

Jennie

NO because they are changing his dose when he's in range. They need to leave it alone for a week and test again.

Find out what dad is taking everyday for a full 7 day period and post it please. When they test the INR, the result they see is actually from 3 days ago or the dose taken 3 days ago.
 
Thanks for the info, Rachel.

On another note, I called the coumadin clinic this morning. The technician told me that my dad's INR levels were as follows:

6/26 - 1.8
7/2 - 1.5
7/5 - 1.6
7/9 - 2.6

This is different info than what the nurse gave me (have no idea why). The tech said that my dad started out on 7.5 ml of coumadin and it was changed to 10 ml. He said they upped the dose to 12.5 ml (on the 3rd day after taking 10 ml for 2 days straight) to get him within range.

They said they test every 3 days since my dad is a new patient and they want to establish the right dose. They also said that as a new patient, he will receive his results the same day he has his blood tests. This will change after he shows some consistency with his INR results (though, not if I can help it).

Gosh, I didn't realize my dad had such low INR levels to begin with. The tech said this is common in the beginning. Your thoughts?

I am going to attend the next coumdin clinic next week to ask more questions.

Thanks.
Jennie
 
It sounds like he is getting in range and that's good.
Just watch so they don't make very large adjustments and put him on a 'roller coaster'.
Increases or decreases of one's weekly dosage normally should not exceed 10 percent unless he was way, way out of range.
Rich
 
What I see wrong is their increasing doses too fast. They're never going to know what the correct dose is if they don't settle on something and let it be for a week before testing again. Your about to see the seesaw effect happen. Too low, then too high, then too low and so forth. My opinion, they should put him on 10mg per day and not monkey with it for a week. This will give it time to stablize and see if indeed 10mg per day is right or too much. I have a feeling it's too much, but now they have him on 12.5mg. There doing the proverbial "Rush and load" to get him in range, but it's not going to do a thing for stability.
 
Approaching them general does nothing but make them mad, even if their dead wrong. This is where the patient more or less has to take charge of their own care. You can stand by and wait until you get that chart or you can read that link I sent to you that has all the information on dosing and how Coumadin works and see what happens. Bottom line is that there is no good solution to a problem of poor management except to find another provider and that's usually not an option.

If they continue to test every 3 days and change doses as often as they test, you might point blank ask them how they expect to find the correct dose for him if they 're changing the doses before they have a chance to stablize.
 
Ross said:
If they continue to test every 3 days and change doses as often as they test, you might point blank ask them how they expect to find the correct dose for him if they 're changing the doses before they have a chance to stablize.

"Experts" that do this see Coumadin as a drug that acts immediately and leaves the system, and dose patients more like diabetics taking insulin, always changing the dose for the day.
 
Thanks for the suggestion, Ross. BTW, I did read the link you sent about coumadin/dosing. However, I don't think my dad is comfortable yet with self-dosing. I did print out the article and will have him read for add'l education.
Jennie
 
Compare that article with what they are doing. You'll soon see why what there doing is wrong. It takes 3 days for a dose to show in a blood test. So in essence, what they see is 3 days old when they test. If they change doses every 3 days, it's impossible to know what the correct dose will be because their always looking 3 days back. Like I said before, they should leave him on 7.5mg a day for one full week, then test. I'll bet 7.5mg daily is too much.

To complicate matters, as he begins excercising more, his dose will have to be adjusted higher again. The more blood that circulates through the liver, the faster INR drops.
 
Pharmacodynamics and Dosing Considerations

Anticoagulant Activity. The anticoagulant activity of warfarin depends on the clearance of functional clotting factors from the systemic circulation after administration of the dose. The clearance of these clotting factors is determined by their half-lives. The earliest changes in the International Normalized Ratio (INR) are typically noted 24 to 36 hours after a dose of warfarin is administered. These changes are due to the clearance of functional factor VII, which is the vitamin K*dependent clotting factor with the shortest half-life (six hours). However, the early changes in the INR are deceptive because they do not actually affect the body's physiologic ability to halt clot expansion or form new thromboses.4

Antithrombotic Effect. The antithrombotic effect of warfarin, or the inability to expand or form clots, is not present until approximately the fifth day of therapy. This effect depends on the clearance of functional factor II (prothrombin), which has a half-life of approximately 50 hours in patients with normal hepatic function.

The difference between the antithrombotic and anticoagulant effects of warfarin need to be understood and applied in clinical practice. Because antithrombotic effect depends on the clearance of prothrombin (which may take up to five days), loading doses of warfarin are of limited value.4,12 Because warfarin has a long half-life, increases in the INR may not be noted for 24 to 36 hours after administration of the first dose, and maximum anticoagulant effect may not be achieved for 72 to 96 hours.4

Loading doses of warfarin (i.e., 10 mg or more per day) may increase the patient's risk of bleeding episodes early in therapy by eliminating or severely reducing the production of functional factor VII. The administration of loading doses is a possible source of prolonged hospitalization secondary to dramatic rises in INR that necessitate increased monitoring. Administration of loading doses has also been hypothesized to potentiate a hypercoagulable state because of severe depletion of protein C. The practice of using loading doses should be abandoned because it has no effect on the inhibition of thrombosis.4[corrected]

A potential paradoxic consequence of loading doses is the development of a hypercoagulable state because of a precipitous reduction in the concentration of protein C (approximate half-life of eight hours) during the first 36 hours of warfarin therapy.12 Thus, loading doses theoretically may cause clot formation and/or expansion by limiting the production of proteins C and S, which have shorter half-lives than prothrombin. Consequently, the concurrent use of heparin is extremely important.

The initial dose of warfarin should approximate the chronic maintenance dose that is anticipated. In most patients, the average maintenance dose is 4 to 6 mg per day. Dose has an inverse relation with age. In patients 50 years old, the average daily dose is 6.3 mg; in patients 70 years old, the average daily dose is 3.6 mg.
 
Hi All.

My dad's INR yesterday was 2.2. The lab prescribed him a whole week of coumadin......10 ml every day except Monday and Wednesday. These days he will take 12.5 ml. So, it sounds like he is becoming more "stable." I am hoping he will stay consistent in the coming weeks.

Thanks.
Jennie
 
I know it since Monday, 6/9.....

6/9 - 10 ml
6/10 - 10 ml
6/11 - 12.5
6/12 - 10 ml
6/13 - 10 ml
6/14 - 10 ml
6/15 - should be 10 ml

If you need it before 6/9, I can ask my dad.

Thx.
Jennie
 
72.5mg total for the week.

72.5 X 5%=76.125

10 X 5=50+25=75mg

It may work. Personally I'd of gone a little bit higher. 10mg 4 days a week and 12.5 3 days a week.
 

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