New guy with Aortic Dissection question

[warnerd]

Looks like an interesting site. I plan on reading every message diligently. I do have a question. If it?s already been addressed, I?ll accept a ?please look around? reply.

I read an article this month on Aortic Dissection in Men?s Health and it has got me wondering. I have a bovine valve and was concerned that since my valve has been surgically sewn in, am I MORE susceptible to this condition than the average Joe. I know my cardiologist can answer this and, yes, I?ll ask. I was just wondering if anyone else on the board has already dealt with this, whether it be bovine, swine or artificial valves.

My biggest concern is while weight lifting. For Bench Press, I do 255 lbs and had hopes of reaching 300lbs to relive my glory days of 20 years ago. I know that Aortic Dissection is related to blood pressure and it?s the bench press that ?seems? to be the most strenuous for me. Also, Men?s Health alluded to chest exercises in particular being a concern.

Just looking for comments from anyone that?s been there.

With your patience, I?m sure I?ll have more questions.

 

[Ross]

Logical thinking says no your not, but you do raise a point that I never really considered before. I don't know that I'd be lifting anywhere near that amount if I had valve replacement. Seems to be asking for trouble. What has your Doctor said about weight lifting of that magnitude?

 

[warnerd]

Short answer, he?s not aware.
Here?s the long answer with my life (valve) history.

Being at risk of showing my stupidity, I haven't seen my cardiologist since a year ago June, so he's not aware of the situation. My surgeon said that I could do just about anything a "normal" person would do. We talked about lifting, just not at those extremes.
To be fair, when I went thru the surgery, I was 30lbs heavier than I am now and lived an inactive lifestyle. I was told that to get off of the BP meds (Coreg/Mavik), I'd have to loose a lot of weight. I lost about 60 lbs and looked awful and the doc wouldn?t take me off the meds even though I was getting dizzy during the day and recording a BP of 85/55 and a heart rate < 50 (helped by digoxin). I had lifted when I was young and really enjoyed it. I picked it up again and have added at least 20lbs of lean muscle. My GP thinks I look great but he doesn?t really follow the heart thing closely. Anyway, the lifting has increased my metabolism and my previously noted symptoms have gone away. I also run 15+ miles/week and have never felt better. All of this has resulted in a cholesterol drop from 225+ to below 135. Triglycerides have dropped from 400+ to 50. Needless to say, I was cruisin? along thinking life is great when the John Ritter situation occurred and the aforementioned Men?s Health article.

 

[Kevin M]

I think RobThat'sMe blew his aorta in an emergency situation. He lifted weights extensively. I remember him saying that he is not allowed to lift like he used to because lifting puts additional pressure. Maybe I don't have it right. Do a search for all threads with RobThatsMe and I'm sure it will come up. There have been a few interesting threads on this subject and you can probably get some answers from them.
Kev

 

[warnerd]

Kevin, thanks for the advice. I did just that and have started to scratch the surface. I think the answers do lie here. I definetly am going to reel things in a bit until I can see the cardiologist. What a wonderful site. Thanks again.

 

[RobThatsMe]

Hi WarnerD,

Kevin is correct. I had a dissection occur without warning. I was a serious body builder, and lifted 5 days a week.

I was lucky enough to survive the surgery, only a 3 to 6% chance of survival were the odds.

Anyway... to the point. My doctors, (vascular surgeon, cardiologist, and heart surgeon), all advised me to not lift heavy again. In fact, they prefer I don't lift anything over 45 lbs.

I was also advised that the 2 exercises that put the most stress on the circulatory system are Squats, and Leg Press. I might also add... I did legs the day prior to my dissection. I used to squat 410 lbs in the rack, free weights..My own body weight was 174. I was 49 when this occurred.

Another point.... Don't EVER hold your breath while lifting... that will put additional stress on your circulatory system.

My own spin... Forget your Glory days... At our age a strong exercise routine can keep you well toned, don't try to turn back the years or match what you did in your 20's. Aggressive exercise could be damaging. Consider your exercise as a maintenance routine to stay toned, not bulk out.

Obviously my spin is due to my situation. I thought I was in peak health, 174 all muscle, 7.6% body fat... then.. .wham...within 2 days of surgery I fell to 147 lbs. my body consumed all my muscle to help heal itself.

Read my narrative in the member profiles...

Good luck, be smart.... and safe with your workout.

If I can help answer any of your questions, you can also e-mail me.

Rob

 

[Nancy]

Hi Warner-

Not sure if your name is Warner or not--I'm quite sure it's not War Nerd

Just wanted to say welcome to the site. You can see how much feedback you're getting from folks who've been where you are right now and who are still active in athletics, just not in the same way they once were.

This is a terrific site and you have lots of built-in friends.

Hope to see you here posting often.

My husband is the patient here.

 

[warnerd]

Rob, I had taken Kevin's advice and I did find some of your earlier posts informative. I appreciate your view.
Reading the Men's Health article is what really got me started doing some research. Their article was based on "normal" healthy guys such as yourself. Here I am putting myself thru the paces and I'm not "normal".
Got to admit, I've been putting on the muscle and starting to look good. My bodyfat has dropped from over 30% down to 12% with hopes of going lower. I was actually getting "encouragement" from the GP. Although, as I mentioned before, his view was aesthetic and not from a cardiac viewpoint. I was having visions of benching in the 300s again. Deads are hard on my back, so I was going light with strict form. I was also working on my squat form and therefore intoducing box squats which have also been fairly light.
To be honest, I'm going to have to think this thru. I've never lifted without going full intensity.


Nancy, I guess you can call me Dave if you're not partial to War Nerd. Thanks for the welcome and I wish I would have known about this site 2 years ago. What an incredible place. I've felt pretty alone in my situation.

 

[mike shields]

Hi Warnerd
At one time I use to lift a lot of heavy weights, but one of the cardic fellows had ask me how much I was lifting and when I told him it was close to 300lbs he told me not to do that anymore. He told me not to lift anything over 50lbs. I know one guy at the gym were I go who had his aortic valve changed and has no restrictions at all and he 's always lifting heavy weights.

mike

 

[Christina]

Hi there Warnerd,

I want to give you a warm welcome to our wonderful forum that we passionately call our other family. You've certainly come to the right place and we encourage everyone to ask questions and to get all the info they want. You often will find more information here than you'll ever get from your cardio or PCP. They often are too busy to talk with you. You're lucky if they give you a whole 7-10 minutes. This has been my experience.
I am very impressed with you going from 30% to 12% bodyfat. This is amazing to me.
Also very impressive was your cholesterol drop from 225 to 135 and the tryglycerides from 400 to 50.
My husband is struggling with his and he's not fat at all. Lifts 3 x a week and other days he rides his bike. His doctor is giving him hell every 6 months.
But the guys here are giving you the right advise by going to the cardio every 6 months to be checked, and to have an echo at least once every two years.

I have wished since my AVR's in 2000 that I could go back even 10 years to my so called glory days. I also lifted weights extensively for many years and loved the look it gave. I never did this professionally because there was no way I was going to harm my body with drugs. I just lifted to look good and to feel great.
But that buff look was gone real fast and I haven't been able to get it back. I am no longer going to a gym but am working out at home. No longer do I have a personal trainer (too much pressure) that used to push me beyond my capabilities. I shudder to think what could have happened during those grueling leg exercises alone.
Today I am happy to be alive. Thankful I listened to that little voice telling me to go to a doctor to have myself checked out, and for them to find what was wrong.
I am afraid to lift heavy anymore because that little voice in the back of my head seems to always be there as a warning. I always think about what could happen if I do. It is tempting though, because deep in my heart I would like to have the other me back, a younger me with a healthy normal valve.
There is not a day that goes by that I don't think about the days in the gym, the commadarie, the friendships made, but I also know that those days are gone. I don't need it as much either anymore. My priorities have changed.
Today I lift in my garage. I don't run anymore, but I powerwalk. I alternate with the recumbant bike. And at times I am lazy and don't work out. Today I think that's okay.
My thinking has changed.

So be good to yourself, and treasure your life. You've been given a second chance.

 

[epstns]

Dave - I haven't had my valve replaced yet, but I HAVE received the same advice from my cardio that Rob did. That is, do all the cardio/vascular exercise I used to do, but don't lift "heavy" weights. My doc has suggested a limit of 40-50 lbs. (I'm a little guy -- 5'8" tall, weigh about 150, body fat about 15%, age in mid-50's.) That allows me to do higher reps rather than higher weights, and I stay moderately toned, just not "big."

I would ask your cardio, then do what he tells you is OK. Some care is honestly warranted here.

 

[warnerd]

Hi Christina,
Thanks. BTW, I originally went from about 215 lbs down to 145 and had less than 10% BF but it wasn't pretty. Past 6 months I put on 30 with 20 being muscle. Unfortunately it may have been unknowingly at the risk of damaging the new valve. I have a cardio appointment next week and I'll come clean and get the real scoop then
I guess I can go a week without lifting

Mike and Steve, thanks for the info.

Dave

 

[Karlynn]

Dave,
We're all hoping that your appointment next week gives you good news.

Karlynn

 

[taranjit]

Mixing up so many things??

Mixing up so many things??

Readind thru all your and others' threads, it seems that a lot of things are being discussed simultaneously?... Is your question: "Can an AVR person get aortic dissection by heavy lifting?"... If this is or was your original question, the answer might be both yes and no... some people have the disease of whole aorta and in their case they can get aortic dissection (and they do not even have to get an AVR or lift heavy to get it), while others do not have that problem and they should not get it.... You will come across some who fall in the former category.. I personally know someone who has lifted extremely heavy after 2 AVRs (first one 11 years ago, and second 7 years ago) and she hasn't had aortic dissection yet.. So the question back to you is which category do you belong to? I guess you do not know, and neither does anyone else here, and perhaps not even your cardiologist (yet).. So in order to cover all possibilities (especially the worst one), it is generically advised to not lift heavy after an AVR (in the light of aortic dissection, and other problems)...

That does not mean that you should completely give up on your dreams.. Your biggest mistake is not to closely monitor your situation.. when no one really knows, and you really want to keep lifting, why can't you keep lifting and very closely monitor your valve, aorta, etc every 3-6 months or so... do it for 3-5 years... if you fall in the problem zone, you will find out, else you might decide to keep lifting... drop poundages a bit in the mean while this experiment is taking place and listen closely to each little thing your body is telling you in between tests..

And reading your posts, it seems that you tend to incline more on aesthetics than strength, although if possible you would like to have both... I suggest that you focus on aesthetics right now, and not you maximal strength goals, until you find out for sure (a few years away)... what I mean is, you can still attain you body shape, size, composition (fat, etc) goals by not lifting maximum poundages... what you can attain by lifting 300lbs, you can still attain by lifting 250 lbs and for that matter 225 lbs.. I am sure you know what I mean - bodybuilding and weightlifting, although cousins, are not the same..

good luck...
taranjit

 

[warnerd]

Taranjit,

"Is an AVR person more susceptible to aortic dissection than the non AVR person by heavy lifting?" was my original question. Assuming neither has a genetic predisposition to the condition. Unfortunatley/fortunately that seemed to lead to a discussion of whether an AVR person should lift heavy at all. The consensus seemed to be ?talk to your doc? and ?my doc says no? with a few exceptions. I?m going to talk to mine on Wednesday to find out his stance in regards to me. I will propose my desire to continue and see how they respond. Without your comments, I probably would have accepted their ?general? stance w/o a discussion on how they can help me achieve what I really want to accomplish.
BTW, it?s interesting that you caught on to my inner conflict. I ?want? to concentrate on the aesthetics, but my body and attitudes push me towards strength. My body does respond well to the strength aspects. My ?mind/goal center? can really follow the progress of adding additional weight and seeing that progress. I don?t deal well with my arm is 1/32? bigger this week.
Thanks for the thoughts!

 

[taranjit]

Not everything is well known by everyone!

Not everything is well known by everyone!

"talk to your doctor"... "my doctor says so"... are always most popular suggestions, so I am not surprised that you got them too... Of course it is a no brainer that without docs we heart patients can not survive and have to listen to them... and doctors are always on the safe side and themselves do not know everything.. so they pass on their safest and best judjement, which works perfectly with people whose lifestyle is not affected at all by restrictions anyway, or who do not have any extra-ordinary desire.. otherwise, you have to (almost) become a doctor yourself in order to carry your own extraordinary needs... What do you think the cardiologist you are going to see in a few days would really know the answer to your following question:

--> "Is an AVR person more susceptible to aortic dissection than the non AVR person by heavy lifting?" Assuming neither has a genetic predisposition to the condition. <--

I do not know what he will say, but I can bet that he would NOT say "Oh NO problemo... pump it man.. go for the max tomorrow.. why 300lbs, go for 325lbs... "... he would of course ask you to take it easy, take precautions, etc.. God knows how many reasearch groups, if at all, across the world are currently studying this combination : post AVR aortic dissection.... and even if they are your doc knows about it or not, etc.. etc.. Please do not misunderstand me - that I am insulting docs or anyting.. rather I am suggesting we understand that docs are human too and not God themselves.. each situation is a new situation in itself, they simply pick up the safest equation for you... unless some 100 folks like you pump their guts out for 10 years after AVRs, AND that is closely studied by a group of docs, and published, and well understood by everyone, etc, how can we expect your doc to know these answers???..

I suggest that you work with your cardiologist, honestly tell him of keeing up with your desire that keeps you so happy, ask him that you would do anything (e.g. closely monitoring with him ever few months using ADVANCED tests, etc) to keep doing it, that you would also educate yourself as much as possible, etc... Doctors are good humans, they understand human emotions very well.. if he looks in your eyes how bad you want to do a (good) thing, he will go extra distance to help you.. you have to go that extra distance yourself..

good luck.. don't stop living or lifting, if it means so much to you... you might just have to find out what else you have to do in order to keep doing it..

 

[warnerd]

Interesting thoughts taranjit and I agree.
You did spur an interesting dilemma. What if he does say ?pump it man?. I?m learning (albeit slowly) that you are your own best caregiver. Just because he says what I want to hear doesn?t necessarily make it right for me. I really have to weigh his response (along with reasoning) with the information gathered here and make my own best decision. It?s a 2-way street whether they say what you want to hear or not. Thanks again. daw

 

[taranjit]

How was appointment?

How was appointment?

hi Dave,
please fill us in as to how your appointment with cardiologist went, and what is your action plan as a result..
taranjit

 

[warnerd]

Sorry about that. This kind of migrated over the the Heart Talk Board. Here's the message I posted over there.
"We'll I'm back from the appointment. They apologized for losing me in the system. I?ll be the one controlling the follow-up?s from now on.
MY main goal for going was to resolve the weightlifting question. I didn't get the answer I was expecting. The short answer was that I looked great and since I felt great, I should keep doing what I've been doing. I'm a tad skeptical since the consensus here was to not lift. 50lbs seemed to be the magic number. Regardless, I'm having an echo on Monday and she said they?d be able to tell if there were any negative consequences to my previous actions. We?ll see. Dave"

taranjit, it was kind of a weird response. Sort of like "it hasn't killed you yet, so keep doing it". Didn't give me a warm fuzzy, believe me.

I was due for a mix-up in routines anyway, so, I decided to go to a higher rep, lighter weight scheme for awhile. 12-15 reps per set and supersetting opposing muscle groups, vertical push-pull on Mondays, horizontal on Thursday, hip dominant legs on Tuesday and knee dominant on Friday. I'll run 6 miles on Wednesday and Saturday. Today was the first day. Boy, do I prefer the "power lifting" routine better. The "bodybuilding" style is a lot of work and almost resembles exercise.

I had the echo today and will get the results on Friday and will make any adjustments then.

 

[taranjit]

thanks for update Dave,
So it is clear that no one can take a better care of us than us ourselves... Please follow up regularly, every 3-6 months if you can especially for the first few years (3-5 years).. Only then you would know a little about all of this... Don't blame that poor cardiologist, he hinself does not know everything ..

Keep us posted.. there aren't too many 'brothers in iron' on this board, so keep in touch... who knows, one day we will shed more light to the next generation of AVR recipients who love lifting.. I'm sure they will truly appreciate that we explored this area, just like we would have greatly benefitted at this point from any such research...

Good luck with echo results tomorrow..
taranjit