Vit K2 and stenosis - VERY ENCOURAGING

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from what I remember the good thing about K2 is it is produced by normal bacteria in the gut, so unless there are some problems with absorbtion etc., most people aren't deficient in K2..

It's true that the gut bacteria produce vitamin K2 from vitamin K1, but we do not absorb much of that K2 - the gut bacteria keep it for themselves.

I once emailed Dr Cees Vermeer, the scientist leading research into vitamin K2 and asked him what people did before supplements as surely people weren't deficient. He told me that before the advent of refrigeration food was often slightly 'spoiled' and the bacteria which 'spoiled' the food made vitamin K2. People who eat more fermented food, like certain cheeses, or that Japanese natto, have higher levels of K2 than people who don't eat those foods.
 
It's true that the gut bacteria produce vitamin K2 from vitamin K1, but we do not absorb much of that K2 - the gut bacteria keep it for themselves.

I once emailed Dr Cees Vermeer, the scientist leading research into vitamin K2 and asked him what people did before supplements as surely people weren't deficient. He told me that before the advent of refrigeration food was often slightly 'spoiled' and the bacteria which 'spoiled' the food made vitamin K2. People who eat more fermented food, like certain cheeses, or that Japanese natto, have higher levels of K2 than people who don't eat those foods.

They probably have higher levels of Vit K2, BUT If the other people aren't deficient, then its just extra and not really needed.

As for Valve calcification, being related to diet or supplements, I guess it MIGHT be in some cases, especially in native valves that slowly stenosis over time and are usually the cause for elderly people needed new valves.
But for tissue valves where the main build up causing the stenosis, is made up of different things (apatite) than calcification in the arteries, my guess would be that isnt dependent or have much to do with Vit K 2 defieciency, since the main group of people who go thru tissue valves the quickest are the younger, (teens,20s-30s)patients, so I doubt they all are deficient in Vit K1 or 2. Many people including doctors that treat mainly children and young adults believe the "calcification" of tissue valves or grafts, conduits etc, is probably related to the body's ability to grow or heal bones. Which makes more sense to me since younger people who are still growing or at ages where broken bones tend to heal quickly and usually have very good bone density, usually are the age group who tissue valves USUALLY last the shortest time in, but elderly people 60s and up who usually have a harder time with bones healing or have low bone density or even osteoporosis and past menopause in females, are the age group that tissue valves tend to last decades in. So I would tend to believe that ( bodies ability to grow or heal bones) plays a larger role in tissue valve's longevity than how much vitamen K (1 or 2 since the body needs k1 to make k2) a person takes in.

I also have wonderred if the fact normal flora that convert k1 to K2 often get wiped out with antibiotics, IF that plays a part in why people on Coumadin really have to watch their INRs while on antibiotics.

ps
When rereading the first post, since they had him add K2 and D and STOP his calcium supplements, to me that makes it tougher to say 1 change made a difference, unlike most studies where just 1 thing is changed, or maybe multipl arms where a combo may be changed in 1 arm, 1 thing in another arm and no changes in the control.
"Because of his aortic valve issue, I suggested that, in addition to the 10,000 units of vitamin D required to increase his 25-hydroxy vitamin D level to 70 ng/ml, he also add vitamin K2, 1000 mcg per day, along with elimination of all calcium supplements. (I asked Don to use a K2 supplement that contained both forms, short-acting MK-4 and long-acting MK-7.) "
 
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The doctor at the center of this anecdotal report has a thriving vitamin supplement and monitoring business.

http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/

https://shop.trackyourplaque.com/Product/78/TYP_Program_Guide.aspx

He posted a case of remarkable spontaneous and rapid regression of stenosis with vitamin D several years ago. Even I, highly trained in pharmacology, was persuaded to try it - I was desperate to see if I could stabilize my stenosis at the time and perhaps avoid surgery. It failed to do anything to stem the progression of the disease. I should have known better. Vitamin D has recently become a major health fad, even though there is no proof that supplementation does anything useful, at least cardiovascular wise. http://www.theheart.org/article/132...medium=email&utm_source=20111215_EN_Heartwire

Now this guy is suggesting Vitmain K2 based on a single oddball case. And, of course he'd be happy to sell it to you. And why am I not surprised to read this at the end of his report" "Pressures on my time being what they are, I've not had the freedom to put together a prospective study to further examine this fascinating question."
 
Hi Lyn,

I know it's about coronary heart disease and the calcification that comes with that, but we never know the mechanism by which calcification occurs in valvular disease, and if there's any chance that the same vitamin K2 can have a positive effect on valvular calcification then why not try it - it can't harm and it doesn't cost much.

Anne
 
Thats about coronary heart disease, which is a different material than causes valve stenosis. I believe many/most valve patients, especially BAV have very clean arteries and dont need CABGs.

That was exactly the case for me, Lyn . My arteries were squeeky clean (with excellent cholesterol levels) and my valve was very calcified.
 
That study is a good start looking at a different heart problem. Reversing an already stenotic valve is another matter, and I was more pointing out that Dr. Davis is a bit of a cowboy, promoting his products with these single oddball cases. Also, at the time of surgery my coronaries were clean while my valve was a godawful calcified mess.
 
I was more pointing out that Dr. Davis is a bit of a cowboy, promoting his products with these single oddball cases..
Who ever said you have to buy vitamin K2 from Dr Davis ? I get mine from iHerb at approx $15 for two months supply - that's very little, and since there's no harm and there MAY be some good to taking K2, why not take it ? I need K2 also because I have osteoporosis.

Seems to be that the original poster posted something here about a supplement, vitamin K2, which could be helpful for the heart and maybe for calcification of the bicuspid valve and there's been some very anti vitamin K2 talk back from others who, from what they wrote it is obvious that they have not looked at K2 and so know little about it. Have they read all the pubmed reports on it ? Have they asked questions of researchers on it ? What's the problem with this supplement that some are so anti it ? I could understand it if vitamin K2 were some exotic, expensive thing only available from one source, but it's not, it's available easily and cheaply and many studies are showing it's benefits for health.

Anne
 
Many people including doctors that treat mainly children and young adults believe the "calcification" of tissue valves or grafts, conduits etc, is probably related to the body's ability to grow or heal bones. Which makes more sense to me since younger people who are still growing or at ages where broken bones tend to heal quickly and usually have very good bone density, usually are the age group who tissue valves USUALLY last the shortest time in, but elderly people 60s and up who usually have a harder time with bones healing or have low bone density or even osteoporosis and past m
Coming back to this - in this instant the doctors are talking about the replacement tissue valves Lyn. It cannot be that the calcification in bicuspid aortic valve is related to the bone growth in childhood and youth because if that were the case then most people with BAV, including most of us here, would get the stenosis in childhood and youth and need our replacement valves then. In the majority of cases calcification occurs later and stenosis in BAV is commonest in the 50's well past the years that bones are growing.
 
I've seen articles saying BAV stenosis is commonest in the 50's; but from the posts I've seen here, replacement of aortic valve in BAV stenosis instances seems most common in 30's and 40's. I'd say that might suggest mild stenosis seems to begin most often in early twenties, which is immediately after skeletal growth seems to stop.
 
Coming back to this - in this instant the doctors are talking about the replacement tissue valves Lyn. It cannot be that the calcification in bicuspid aortic valve is related to the bone growth in childhood and youth because if that were the case then most people with BAV, including most of us here, would get the stenosis in childhood and youth and need our replacement valves then. In the majority of cases calcification occurs later and stenosis in BAV is commonest in the 50's well past the years that bones are growing.

YES, I know that, which is why I started that with "As for Valve calcification, being related to diet or supplements, I guess it MIGHT be in some cases, especially in native valves that slowly stenosis over time and are usually the cause for elderly people needed new valves."

and the paragraph you pulled that from started with "Tissue valves" and specified not only "tissue valves" several times in that paragraph but also mentioned Grafts and conduits (that aren't native) and since that sentence ended with "
or even osteoporosis and past menopause in females, are the age group that tissue valves tend to last decades in. So I would tend to believe that ( bodies ability to grow or heal bones) plays a larger role in tissue valve's longevity than how much vitamen K (1 or 2 since the body needs k1 to make k2) a person takes in."
I think it is pretty clear to most people I was talking about replacement valves in THAT section.

FWIW I dont think many or even any people here posting in this thread is "Anti vitamen K 2".
"and there's been some very anti vitamin K2 talk back from others who, from what they wrote it is obvious that they have not looked at K2 and so know little about it. Have they read all the pubmed reports on it"

and IF you read the other thread about Vit k2 you would not say just because they didn't get excited about Vit K2 and valves, that they did't look into Vit K2 or know little about it.. First of all Vitamen K2 has many beneficial uses in the body-bones arteries etc and we've discussed several of them before, with links to reliable studies, and even mentioned thim in this thread, so its pretty much a strawman argument saying otherwise.






.
 
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YES, I know that, which is why I started that with "As for Valve calcification, being related to diet or supplements, I guess it MIGHT be in some cases, especially in native valves that slowly stenosis over time and are usually the cause for elderly people needed new valves."
I think there has perhaps been a misunderstanding here. Whoever said that valve calcification is related to diet or supplements ? Or that the cause of calcification was due to deficiency of anything ? The fact that vitamin K2 MIGHT help slow down or reverse calcification of BAV does not infer that there was a deficiency of K2 to begin with - vitamin K2 is being used as a therapeutic agent and not as something to correct a deficiency.
 
Vitamin k2 and D3

Vitamin k2 and D3

What I'm interested in is:

A: Is the "preventive cardiologist" a qualified practictioner?
B: Why the high dosage of Vitamin D3. I'm hearing 3000iu is not enough. Some Paleo diet guy(http://freetheanimal.com/2009/03/vitamin-k2-reduces-heart-disease.html) on free the animal web site is suggesting 6000iu of D3 a day in order to get to a level that is preventative to disease "it's about the level of 25 (OH) D in ng/ml in your blood that counts" citing that 60 ng is a level you want because of all these graphs and charts about cancer prevention:

http://freetheanimal.com/2008/12/vitamin-d-deficiency-and-all-cancer.html

I respect the guy to some extent. Richard I think his name is but he is all about eating meat simply to promote a us versus them mentality that is more linked to football. I asked him about the k1 to k2 conversion and if it was enough as well as his thoughts on Forks over knives. He blocked me from commenting further. Also he simply said the body doesn't convert enough and you need meat. It goes against everthing Forks Over Knives is saying. Sure gut bacteria is necessary but you can easily get that by significantly lowering your meat consumption. K2 will help send the calcium to the bones where is supposed to go but he doesn't address cancer rates being higher as dairy and meat consumption increases. He simply says the Forks over knives studies are bogus based on a blog. I'm finding Forks Over Knives well researched and makes sense when professionals with 30 + years of study and research backed with the Chinese population studies on cancer rates as very important. Alot of this k2 thing started with the rotterdam study. Europeans also eat much healthier, consume whole foods, and use their bicycles.

Now as for Vitamin D3 and K2. I am taking 6,000iu of D3 and K2. I am feeling a difference. I am also doing many other things such as eating more veggies and whole foods along with losing weight. It by no means will reverse my stenosis nonetheless my gut feeling is it is worth a try. Yesterday, I read another study negating vitamin D supplementation and most supplements in general as inconclusive. hmmm.... frustrating. However, I think it is a matter of still examining getting nutrients through whole foods and finding a source of fermented soybeans(natto) and finding out what happens. Maybe take part in a clincal trial.

I have my echo in April. We shall see.
 
I hear that too much Vitamin D can lead to an excess amount of calcium in the blood which can find its way into the tissues.
1. Why would someone take a Vitamin D supplement when they have a tissue valve?

I also read that coronary calcification was found to be higher in those taking Aspirin and Statins.
2. Why would someone take a daily Aspirin if they have a tissue valve and no other reason to take it?

I think I understand the reasoning on taking a daily Vitamin K supplement, to steer Calcium away from the tissues and into the bones.
3. Is there any negative to taking a Vitamin K supplement?

Lastly, for those with tissue valves, it appears that Magnesium softens Calcium and may help keep it from binding to tissue valves. I take 125mg of Magnesium Taurate every day. The key to Magnesium is choosing one that has a good delivery system, to be absorbed. Many Magnesium supplements simply do not get absorbed and are more used for constipation, etc. I find that the Magnesium Taurate is a good one.

Thanks for any and all thoughts!
 
"Too much vitamin D can lead to an excess amount of calcium in the blood etc" -

- that "too much" vitamin D would have to lead to an overhigh level of serum D - 25(OH)D - something in excess of a level of 200 ng/dL (500 nmol/L) and that would mean a person taking something like in excess of 10,000 IU vitamin D per day for very many, many months. It is very hard to get toxic levels of D which is what would lead to "an excess amount of calcium in the blood". A more 'normal' amount of vitamin D would be between 2,000 and 5,000 IU per day and that would not give an excess of serum D. It is always best to get your serum level of D checked, but the fact is that most people are deficient in vitamin D. Vitamin D is highly protective of the heart and vascular system.

Vitamin K - you mean vitamin K2, not vitamin K which means vitamin K1. K2 works in synergy with both vitamin D and vitamin A to keep calcium where it belongs which is in the bones.

This book by Dr Kate Rheaume-Bleue, 'Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox' http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Ca...1&keywords=vitamin+k2+and+the+calcium+paradox is very good but unfortunately has just gone out of print and the price has skyrocketed.

In the absence of a copy of the book, this interview with Dr Mercola and Dr Rhaume-Bleue is well worth watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbd8FqnVT4c

I've been taking 200 mcg of vitamin K2 as MK-7 for the past two years and my aortic stenosis due to my bicuspid aortic valve has remained stable ! My cardiologist is very surprised. I also take 20,000 of vitamin D3 once a week which works out at 2,800 IU D3 per day. I do not take any calcium supplements but get calcium from my diet.

From what I've read about vitamin K2, there is no known toxic level of it so no "negative" to taking it :)

I'm watching the research which is coming out of Maastricht University and the human trial they are doing, giving vitamin K2 to reduce coronary calcification.
 
Hi Neo,

The study from Aachen University http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00785109 is using vitamin K1, that's because in Germany they are only allowed to do trials using prescribed vitamins and only K1 is prescribed (babies born with a certain deficiency of K1), K2 is a supplement so they're not allowed to do trials on it. I'm not sure why they're doing this trial at all because K1 doesn't have anything to do with calcium.

The other study is from Maastricht University and that's using K2: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01002157 It's on coronary calcification but that's close enough to aortic stenosis calcification for me !

Where is your other thread ? Please post a link to it. I've not been on the forum for ages and ages because my stenosis has become stable and it freaks me reading about open heart surgery. I figured I'll be looking at posts about OHS if my stenosis increases....fingers crossed it won't. Of course it may be coincidence that it's been stable for two years but my cardiologist is certainly surprised.

Paleo, thanks for the links. I will certainly check them out. I see a study on Vitamin K being conducted, but for some reason, they're using Vitamin K1?
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT00785109

I started a new thread with these questions. Can you reply to that as well? Thanks!!!
 

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