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warrenr

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
169
I came across this website today and am astonished with there attitudes/ego's. The website is http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=497952

The website is very large and is for medical students and interns for various medical fields. I posted some of the facts about my father's stroke and got totally hammered by the future doctor's. As with a lot of the older doctor's they seem to be worried more about bleeding than stroke. Go figure.... I wonder who is teaching them:eek: Check out there responses to my post's. Most of there responses are totally defensive. It seems they are more concerned about bleeding than stroke when it comes to anticoagulation and mechanical heart valves. I guess I didn't get my point accross. I'm just trying to give them another prostpective.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=497952

In order to post a response you have to register. Regeristing to this site is as easy as regerstering to this site. If you have the time, register and post responses from a patients point of view. These students are our future doctors.

Thanks

Warrenr
 
thanks

thanks

Thanks all,

I may have gone about this the wrong way, but more than anything I was just trying to get an idea on the current teachings to new physician's, med students, and residents and there attitudes along with trying to provide them with some real life problems in dealing with anticoagulation. Although the forum I posted to was ER physicians and they most likely won't be dealing with the overall management of anticoagulation, they will be dealing with mismanagement of it.
 
Hope I helped.

Hope I helped.

Hello all. I can assure you that Varmit is the ?real deal? who has taken up a cause since his father?s stroke and subsequent death to try and bring the medical community in the US into the 21st century on it?s knowledge of ACT (Anticoagulation Therapy). He is a regular member of our forum www.valvereplacement.com (VR) and I encourage you all to take a look. It is a forum established for people who have or are having valve replacement or repair. We deal daily with the frustration of a medical community that still manages ACT with old information and myth. As Emergency Physicians it?s very important you have a current working knowledge of how ACT is managed. You would not believe some of the things we read from our members. We have a few sayings at VR, ?Doctors fear bleeding, patients fear stroke.? And ?It?s easier to replace blood cells than brain cells.? I encourage you to read the Active Lifestyles forum and see what some of our ACT members are doing and to read the Anticoagulation forum to see the knowledge that those of us that have been on ACT for years have acquired.

I also encourage you to visit www.warfarinfo.com. This is a site run by Al Lodwick. He is pharmacist and one of the premier experts in the field of ACT. He has just retired from his own Coumadin Clinic and is now spending a great deal of time traveling the country giving ACT seminars to those in the medical field. It is a generally known fact on VR that the US is behind Europe in it?s ACT management knowledge and protocol and we deal almost daily at VR with significant errors in ACT management. Most recently, one of our members was told by his doctor that he should stop warfarin for 3 days in order to get it out of his system and start all over again because his INR was not stable. I would hope you all know that stopping warfarin for 3 days puts you at an INR of a non-anticoagulated individual, 1.0. A Cleveland Clinic cardiac nurse told one of our members that he could no longer use a regular razor. We get the serious to the ridiculous every week.

As Emergency Room physicians, please know that people on ACT would much rather have a bleed stopped with fresh-frozen plasma than Vitamin K. It?s a huge struggle to get the INR to therapeutic range after Vitamin K has been used. Because it is stored in fat cells, it?s effects are much longer lasting than ffp and keeps people in the hospital longer, or on bridging longer, as they try to get the INR back in-range.

For background, I am a 49 year-old woman and have had my St. Jude mitral valve for over 16 years. I have been home testing for 5 years (my current monitor is INRatio) and I also self-dose, with the full approval of my cardiologist. (If diabetics can home test and self-dose, so can we. It?s not rocket science.) My range is 2.5-3.5, I currently take 76 mg of warfarin a week and when a dose is held, my INR drops like a rock so I never hold for anything less than 6.0 and don?t make a dosage adjustment for anything between 2.3 and 4.0. I have never had a bleed that required medical intervention (and I?ve had some pretty good falls and cuts) or a stroke. My last 6.0 was about 2 weeks ago while I was traveling in France and it?s anyone?s guess as to why. I held a dose, took half a dose, then resumed my normal dose and was at 2.7 within 3 days. My travel schedule was never interrupted. I don?t give a moment?s thought to what I eat regarding my INR, because what we eat does not have a large impact on an INR (other than the high K nutritional products). I have adult beverages regularly (not daily!), but limit myself to two ? for more reasons than just my INR!

I thank you for your hospitality here. Each doctor we educate on ACT is a step in the right direction. It may not be knowledge you use daily as EP?s, but maybe someday someone will present themselves for your care and a bit of what was posted here will be recalled. Maybe one day you?ll have a patient in for something not bleeding or stroke related, but find they are on ACT and have an INR of 1.5. Maybe you?ll be able to prevent a stroke in that patient by bringing attention to the fact that they are not therapeutic and help them take steps to become therapeutic. If one person in Varmit?s father?s chain of medical care over the years had noticed that his INR was being maintained too low, his father might be with him today. You have the opportunity in your practice to make a difference in an area that you may not even think you should be too concerned about. Don?t assume that the person you are seeing, that happens to take warfarin, has a doctor that must be managing it correctly. By just running one small test, you may save a life. Unless the patient has an On-X valve and is in the trial study, anything below 2.0 is too low and needs attention. Letting a one-time patient's low INR go unquestioned because it's not what they are there to be treated for may not be your medical responsibility, but as physicians one small act of concern can make all the difference in that patient's life. It would have in Varmit's father's life.
 
This person may be on their way to being the kind of doctor we don't need. I had to respond.


Quote:
Originally Posted by southerndoc View Post
No offense taken. I would put more merit in your diatribe if you were a physician.

I have to say that this is the problem that those of us that take ACT run up against all the time. We see physicians who don't bother to bring themselves up to speed with current ACT protocol and pull the "you're not a doctor" line on us. We encourage people to go elsewhere when they get that response. It can mean their life. Many people with chronic illness or issues today do bother educating themselves about their illnesses or issues. A 75 year-old may not be able to tell you about their COPD but I can assure you that many 45 year-olds will be able to go toe to toe with most physicians about their disease and demonstrate a significant working knowledge. We have a little thing called the Internet now that allows the average person to access a lot of knowledge. I know that sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You get a bad x-ray report and you hop on the internet to self-diagnose. That can be a pain for physicians and not a good thing for the individual. But those of us with chronic issues that we've dealt with for years are not in that catagory. We spend a lot of time learning about our issues. We appreciate it when the knowledge we acquire is respected.
 
Shame on Them!

Shame on Them!

Warren,

Attempts to register on that site failed--probably postal code as opposed to Zip.

Their answers for the most part reveal how ill informed they are concerning ACT--for their benefit anti-coagulation therapy.

Now we know where the lax attitude to ACT originates--the medical schools.

My PCP instructs at a local teaching hospital and when I see him again I'll ask him to consider a lecture about the dangers of warfarin use.
 
Warren are you sure you don't want to be a mod here at VR? You can get the same abuse right here if your a mod. :D
 
Ross said:
Warrern are you sure you don't want to be a mod here at VR? You can get the same abuse right here if your a mod. :D

But you have to be a glutton for punishment to be a mod.;)
 
If this wasn't sad and discouraging...

If this wasn't sad and discouraging...

it would be funny. Or maybe we should take comfort in the fact that some things don't change - that being that the younger the doctor the more they know.

These were in my response to southerndoc that I posted earlier.

So take your own advice and go elsewhere.

I'm crying uncle. I give up. This is simply not worth my time. Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics.


Be of good cheer, I don't intend to hang around long. This wasn't an argument or to chastise, but seen as a chance to inform upcoming physicians in an area that much of the medical community feels that the 20 year old protocol is good enough. People who deal with issues where medication means life or death, as in those of us with mechanical valves, care that the physicians we encounter in the ER or in the office have a correct understanding of the medication and it's protocol. Perhaps one day someone with a mechanical mitral valve will present themselves to you, stroking out with an INR of 1.3 and you think back to this and realize that it wasn't the valve risking their life, but the likely possibility that their ACT may have been mismanaged.

I am still hopeful that our future doctors, now in medical school, don't have the same lack of caring or concern that the attitude in the quoted post suggests. Thank you to those who gave some thought to what Varmit and I have posted here. It will only help to make you better doctors.



How do you think we feel?

Acknowledging that your patient may have a pretty good level of knowledge regarding their health concern does not denigrate the knowledge you acquire, nor does it intimate that we, as patients, believe you know less. But the days of patients blindly following their doctors orders are pretty much gone and I'm pretty sure most physicians in practice would tell you this. If you take questioning as an insult, you're in for a very long and unhappy career. I have had some wonderful doctors who have been more than willing to work in partnership with me and are grateful for my level of knowledge on my valve disease, and have encouraged me in my pursuit of that knowledge. It makes their discussions with me much easier, on a higher level of understanding and allow us to plan for treatment we both are invested in.


It's been interesting. I'm going to forward these comments to my uncle and nephew to see what they say. My nephew, in his final year of residency (and head resident - brag brag), made a remark one time about how much he knew in med school compared to how little he knows now. It made me laugh. He has said that my ACT stories from here have helped him.

My day on this site has been "interesting", but it's done. It's too depressing to know that we will most likely have as tough a time getting the new doctors to understand as we've had getting some of the older ones to get onboard.
 
While I think this is great, do they understand over there that Valvereplacement.com did not put any of you up to this? That concerns me a bit.
 
Ross said:
While I think this is great, do they understand over there that Valvereplacement.com did not put any of you up to this? That concerns me a bit.

I have no intentions to continue posting. If fact, I'm not even looking at the place again. I did my little education thing. They are welcome to take it or leave it.

If this was the 10th or even 5th thread that someone on VR posted on, I can see your worry. But if they are going to get their nickers in a bunch over one thread - then they really do think that as doctors-in-the-making, they know it all and don't care to learn from people who have experience.

Warrenr is a member of this site, but he's not a moderator or anything other than a member. His posting on that forum is no different than going on a cooking forum and discussing the dangers of high-salt cooking and pointing to VR.
 
I know but we were brought into the picture by Clicker. I just want to make sure they don't think this is something we do or that we sponsored. I don't mind if they come looking here, but Hank may be a little upset if their admin wants to know why are members are there. I know it's self explainatory, but you know what I mean I hope.
 
Ross said:
It hasn't as of yet. I just need to know what to tell Hank should their admin come knocking at the door.

Tell him to say that he has no control over the private lives of VR members. That this site that he created has allowed people to learn each others stories and one of the byproducts of that is that they have realized that the ACT mismanagement in this country is not just scarce stories here and there but a pervasive problem. They have also found that the US has not caught up to the standards of much of the rest of the 1st world countries and that these individual members have a frustration that they feel needs action to educate the medical community that, for some unknown reason, is very resistant to change in this area - and it means the lives and safety of many members here. (and from the attitude of some (note I just said "some") of the members on that site - we still have a long way to go.

To put it in a larger picture - where would many of the changes in this country be if people (who needed a change for their well being) just gathered as a group, whined about it for a while and then did nothing. Civil Rights would just be a gripe, the vote for women and Blacks would be a dream and many medical advancements spurred on by people who didn't want to have to live a substandard life, would be fiction.

How's that for a start for Hank?;) ;)

(I woke up feisty this morning!:D :p )
 
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