Percutaneous Valve Replacement

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Karlynn

There has been quite a lot of mention of the promise of percutaneous valve replacement in the last several months, as a promise for the future of most anyone receiving a valve. Of late, it seems many members have reported doctors telling them that their next replacement may be percutaneous. I have become increasingly uncomfortable with new members being told that if they go with a tissue valve, their next replacement may be percutaneous. For me, this is like telling someone that eventually there will be a replacement for Coumadin or that the On-X will allow the person to not need it at all. It is science in the very beginning stages of study and is way too premature with PVR and no-warfarin On-X, to offer that as a foregone conclusion. And those of us that take Coumadin know that someday there will be a replacement for Coumadin, there have been some near misses in the past. But we are realistic enough to know not to hold our breaths.

From the reading I have done, the trials, which I believe began in '05 in the US, are being specifically targeted at high-risk patients over 70 who would not survive an open chest procedure. Great news for the people in this category, but far from a conclusion that it will be the standard for most needing VR in the future. From the reading I have done, there are intrinsic problems with these types of replacements that also must be assessed with each individual receiving one.

There is little/no data available to assume that this type of replacement will provide an option for valve longevity and functionality in those not considered high-risk. I'm suggesting that we be very cautious in presenting Percutaneous Valve Replacement as a consideration, particularly for anyone choosing a valve type that, given their age, will give them 10 years or less.

I'm including several articles for anyone who cares to read more (and assess why I'm uncomfortable with offering the Percutaneous Replacement promise/hope to our members. I started reading up on PVR after reading the enthusiasm here a while back and wondering if it also might be feasible in the future in replacing mechanical valves).

Here is a short clip from an interview done in Cathlabdigest.com in September of 2006.

Do you consider percutaneous aortic valve replacement a true potential alternative to surgical repair?
Not yet. I think the procedure is really in its infancy. I mean, it would be analogous to saying that balloon angioplasty was an alternative to bypass in 1980. It?s really not an alternative yet, because there are a lot of patients that are very good surgical candidates and there is no reason to use this experimental procedure on them. Surgery has had over 50 years of experience. With some of the bio-prosthetic valves there are implants that are now almost 20 years in duration. Until we have a better idea of the durability of the percutaneously implanted valve, I think it is way too premature to consider this an alternative. It?s a very good treatment for patients who are not good candidates for surgery. There are a lot of patients with severe aortic stenosis who simply are not suitable for surgery because they?ve got co-morbidities; for instance, severe lung disease, porcelain aortas, which are very heavily calcified aortas that the surgeons can?t cut into, and/or other co-morbidities like renal failure or liver failure, which makes surgery technically unfeasible.


http://www.ctsnet.org/sections/innovation/minimallyinvasive/articles/article-26.html

http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/113/6/771

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=31651

http://www.cathlabdigest.com/article/6212 9/06

http://www.edwards.com/newsroom/nr20050127a.htm

I apologize for being a wet blanket on this subject, but I do feel it is responsible for us to step back and reconsider telling our new members making a valve choice that their next replacement may/would be in the cath lab. Trials have just started in high risk patients and we don't know anything yet about whether it will be a viable option for the "average" person.

I think we are safest when using a philosophy where we recommend based on what medical science knows today. The future is always unknown. I would feel very uncomfortable in recommending an On-X valve to someone with the promise that they would not need to take Coumadin someday. I would, and have, offered that information as a possible point of interest, but I would, and have, always pointed out that it may not come to fruition. I would not want someone counting on it to occur, and I believe we should exercise caution and treat PVR in the same manner.
 
I agree.

As my surgeon put it to me before AVR and I was thinking of the future....
We make decisions based on what is current, not what may or may not be in the future.
 
I'm with you on this, medical advancements happen fast but we should never bank on anything.

I personally don't think anything big will happen in this area during my lifetime and probably longer.....there will be discoveries and possibilities but will any of them become mainstream...i don't think so.

Tissue valves may start to last longer, on-x may have coag free possibilities and some chemist somewhere may find an alternative to warfarin but i'll be too old and too set in my ways to take the risk of changing something that has worked for 20+ years.

Even if a once in a lifetime medical miracle jump in technology happened today, it would be 20years before anyone would be using it in mainstream treatment.

I'm glad we have the solutions we have today, a few weeks of pain and a little pink pill and i'm still here for years to come.

Regards.
 
Really good points, Karlynn. Thanks for addressing this issue. I have stenosing difficulties and a bioprosthetic valve and root due to tissue ingrowth on my valve, this could have occured on a mechanical replacement as well. I will never be a candidate for the PVR.

The only sure thing about OHS is that the longer we can safely extend our native valve and tissues, the higher the likelihood that something new about our conditions will be discovered or explored.
 
Karlynn-
In some ways I agree with your assessment, but disagree in others. Everything about valve surgery is weighing risks and odds against each other. However, I do believe that the odds of percutaneous valve replacements (while I whole-heartedly agree they are in no way a certainty) being available in 10 years is just another thing to throw into the fold. If people choose a tissue valve because of it, so be it as long as they understand that they are taking a risk that it will not actually be a reality at that time. I chose a repair even though they have a much higher short-term (less than two year) re-op rate higher than either tissue or mech valves for the hope of 20+ years w/o anti-coagulation and w/o another operation. Someone choosing a mech valve is accepting the risks associate with warfarin for the benefit of most likely never needing another surgery. In the great big lists of pros and cons for each valve surgery, it?s just one more pro for choosing a tissue valve. In weighing out the pros and cons and making your decision overall, most people will probably not decide on a tissue valve solely because of the possibility that their next surgery will be done via catheder ? but I certainly wouldn?t fault someone who did. I personally don?t think it?s irresponsible for a surgeon or Cardiologist to say that they think that valves will be implanted percutaneously in 10 years if that?s what they believe. After all, they should be the ones with the most up-to-doate research the overwhelming experts on the subject.
 
I don't have a problem with mentioning PVR. My issue is with making it sound like it is pretty much a given. And it may be....for some demographics, but the medical community has yet to decide what those demographics will be. Right now they are concentrating on high-risk. And it is in it's infancy.

bicuspidboy said:
the On-X valve suggested lower coumadin levels & are currently in trials to evaluate that – it doesn’t promise to eliminate it. It is not the same comparison.

This statement is incorrect. On-X is doing low-warfarin AND no-warfarin trials. One of our members is in a group who is not taking warfarin. They are looking into the possibility of eliminating warfarin from On-X valves. But the trial is young. It just started. It is years away from me being comfortable in recommending On-X to someone with the promise that they probably won't have to take Coumadin. I hope some day that I can. I recommend On-X for other reasons - but not for no warfarin. Tissue valves are great choices for many people. But to tell the general VR population that their next replacement will probably be percutaneous is putting the cart way ahead of the horse, particularly when mentioning this to someone 16 years old who has a much more limited tissue valve life than someone who is 55.

If someone wants to present themselves for a study group at the particular hospitals who are doing PVR on otherwise healthy individuals to see what will happen with them in the next 5-10-15 years - God bless them. It's the pioneers that have allowed us all to have the options we do. But we are years away from being able to tell people with the certainty that some people are posting that PVR will most likely be available for their next replacement.

I don't wish to single out the posts that have caused me to become more and more concerned because I don't want to pick on people who have very good, sincere intentions.
 
I see nothing here to substantiate a valve war, which some seem bent on having. It's not going to happen. Should percutaneous valve replacement be presented to someone considering valves at this point in time? That is the question, not whether they're going for Ross, Tissue, Mechanical or home made.

The new folks that come in are looking for information. O.K. it's information, but we better be darn sure they understand that it isn't something available to most at the present time and may not even pan out later on. People will choose what they want anyhow. Some like to play high stakes gambling too. Not something I agree with, but I don't have too.
 
I find it extremely interesting that one of the world's top cardiothoracic surgeons, Dr. Tirone David, as well as all the surgeons I consulted with for my recent valve surgery, all agree that percutaneous valve replacements are a very likely reality in the near future, and not just for high risk surgical patients, but for everyone. And I agree with Mike, aren't the experts in this field the ones who we should be listening to when it comes to these issues? If anyone should be sharing an opinion about the future of percutaneous valve replacements, it should be the surgeons who are the experts. And, more importantly, I feel they have a responsibility to share that information with those of us making decisions about valves. I don't think anyone can say for certain what the future brings but I for one certainly can value the opinion of the world's experts in this field and would like to have all the information when making a decision.

BicuspidBoy...Please do keep posting. I find your response both informative and thought provoking. I think it is important to keep a balance in the information shared on this site and, in my opinion, there does seem to be a bias with many members to slant information in a way that supports their own personal opinions, rather than the current trends and information. I have received many personal messages from members who were basically intimidated and did not want to post publicly because of what they perceived as the backlash they would receive from certain members, just because their experience or opinion differed.

We need to maintain a balance on this site and be respectful of everyone's opinion and experience, even if it differs from our own.
 
I agree with the philosophy that each patient should make a decision based on the idea that you are frozen in the moment with the available surgical technologies.

That being said, I first chose mechanical valve and was very comfortable with that decision. At the eleventh hour, and after speaking with my surgeon, I decided to go with a tissue valve. By then, I had become comfortable with the idea of a possible second surgery ( I am 49.), but did like the idea of the possibility of the percutaneous valve replacement. But I did not base my decision on the sureness of that possibility. I think all the options should be considered and this thread will help people facing the decision to see all the ins and outs of deciding.

I am very happy with my tissue valve. I am also happy that I made friends with the idea of a mechanical valve and the possibility of a second surgery if necessary.

It's a tough decision, probably one of the toughest ever in my life. All the info on this forum is a deep well of information to make that decision and I thank everyone for that!

All the best, Betsy
 
My opinion..

My opinion..

Ross said:
I see nothing here to substantiate a valve war, which some seem bent on having. It's not going to happen.

In my opinion as soon as someone tries to tell someone else what to say or believe -- the entire purpose of this website is in jeopardy. I deplore the threat of censorship - old journalist here - and appreciate ALL views, not just those of longtime members who frequent this website practically daily with their longtime personal experiences and opinions which are certainly food for thought for new members.

New members with innovative ideas intrique me the most and hopefully those members will stay with us after they have had their surgery and share their boundless and new knowledge with us all. Medical marvels continue for us all and I for one, want to be privy to every piece of information I can glean including all unbiased insights to percutaneous valve replacement and its promising future probability.
 
Since this is a thread regarding presenting correct current information, I would be more than happy to read links regarding the use of PVR in low-risk patients and it's projections for the future. I'm not opposed to changing my opinion if I read medical articles that would prove what I've read to be wrong or outdated. It wouldn't be the first time;). Since there are doctors that some have said believe that PVR is a certainty in the near future for low-risk patients, I would think there would be data or articles regarding application to confirm their statements. If not, it's not unheard of for even the best doctors to get a little over-exuberant with upcoming technology. I had one of the best cardiologist in the country for 18 years. He had a practice of 100 patients (of which I was blessed to be one) and spent the rest of his time doing research. Over the years I heard many promising things from him regarding medical technology. Some came to full fruition, some came to limited use and some didn't pan out at all. It's the nature of medical pioneering.

Adam - can we please keep the discussion constructive and keep away from insulting remarks. That's why posts get deleted. I'd be happy to read what you've found about PVR.

I don't believe that it's censorship to be concerned about providing correct, current information for use in making important medical decisions.

Maybe we can get back to exploring this issue in earnest. This was never, ever intended to be tissue v mechanical debate. I was surprised when it turned that way. Simply because my thoughts had been when I started my exploration for information: if PVR will be available soon for the general tissue valve replacement, then it might be possible that a mechanical PVR might not be too far behind.
 
I suspect that there is a lot of "False Hope" being attributed to PVR. I think it is a GREAT technology that can offer some hope to those who otherwise could not endure OHS.

BUT, I would want to ask the question my cardiologist suggested for me to ask potential surgeons and that is "How much Surgical Benefit could I expect from this valve / surgery etc."

Given that a PVR goes INSIDE your existing valve, it seems obvious to my (engineering) mind that the valve OPENING will necessarily be LESS than your native valve and I would expect the Gradient to be on the HIGH Side. This would translate to Limited Exercise Tolerance to some degree.

Note that the Medtronics Freestyle? Porcine Valve seems to have the Lowest Gradient of the tissue valves (around 10 mmHg) while the Bovine Pericardial is in the 20's. I 'believe' (some) surgeons like to replace Aortic Valves when the gradient is over 40 mmHg.

SO if one has a Bovine Pericardial Valve with a gradient of 20-some mmHg, what gradient could they expect from a PVR placed INSIDE that valve?

I'm guessing one could walk around OK on level ground but anything more than a moderate paced walk would be 'taxing'. This would be a Good Question to ask the Surgeons who are performing PVR's. I suspect that our Marathon Runners would NOT be happy with their Exercise Tolerance following a PVR. Just my *opinion*.

'AL Capshaw'
 
Oaktree said:
...People may disagree with you, but they don't need to go on the attack or read things into your post that aren't there...

This isn't directed toward you, Rachel, although I'm quoting a bit of what you wrote.

I don't think a lot of people saw what was written yesterday because much of it was so quickly deleted.
I happened to be on-site as it was all happening.

And I really didn't think some people who yesterday presented other sides to the original point of this thread were "on the attack."

"Unbiased insights" was a phrase mentioned here previously--that's a very good phrase.

Aren't we all looking for the best options available? Maybe a lot of us here would be dead right now if valve replacement technology hadn't progressed during the past ten, twenty, thirty years ago. How much more so may the technology progress in the next ten or more years?

There's more I'd like to say but I'll refrain.
 
Superbob said:
...and Krispy Kremes! :D :D

Hey, medical science will do whatever it does, no matter what views are posted. Whatever our particular visions of the future, let's enjoy the present.

Amen....Arguments and dissentions are kind of like smiles vs. frowns?..they take a lot more effort?..And I have a much better way to burn off those KrispyKremes SuperBob is talking about;) ;) ;)
 
The web is at our fingers and...

The web is at our fingers and...

Oaktree said:
bicuspidboy said:
...I found over 400 articles on PVR on Cardisource alone (if you want those go to cardiosource). I?m not going to reference them here...
Why not? Don't you think everyone would want to see evidence that PVR will be widely available in the forseeable future? Are you saying that you have seen the evidence but you are not going to cite it?

...Here's a simple start. It took me about 10 seconds... http://www.cardiosource.com/srch/results.asp?searchterm=PVR&parsedquery=
but my PVR search evidently includes paravalvular reguritation so...

Here's 400+ more... http://www.cardiosource.com/srch/re...aneous+valve+replacement&parsedquery=&x=8&y=5
 
I never intimated that PVR in general was voodoo medicine. My concern, based on my reading, lies with leading our members to believe it will be widely available for general use soon. I think it's terrific that it's becoming available for high risk individuals.

Rather than posting links with 100's of articles, which we know that none of us will be able to wade through, please post the links to the direct articles that carry the information about PVR use in low-risk patients, it's clinical studies and time-tables, so that we may all go directly to the articles you are referring to in order to understand why people are in such disagreement with my conjecture that PVR for low-risk patients will not be in wide use for quite a while. Or if you find direct quotes from doctors, please post the links to those.
 
This is not a reply to any one post, but...

This is not a reply to any one post, but...

As I was reading some of the responses to the few who attempted any replies, it struck me that there may not be much more that can be said about the issue. Maybe just some rehashing. At least on this thread.
 
Oaktree said:
Now. Back to Al Capshaw's post about the positioning of a cath-deployed valve. That is very interesting, Al. When I first heard about PVR, I thought they were talking about pulling out the old valve, down through the aorta and the iliac artery. So if the new valve is placed within either the native valve or a previously implanted xenograft, then there would definitely be a limit to the number of times that a person could undergo this procedure, wouldn't there? Even if the valve gradient was acceptable on the first go-round, you would still be looking at a lifetime limit on PVR's, just like there is a lifetime limit on VR's done by OHS.
.

Interesting. IF this is the case, wouldn't someone choosing a valve type requiring certain replacements in the future want to reserve the PVR option for later in life. For example, if a 25 year old chooses a tissue, and it lasts until they're 33 or so, would they want to have a PVR then, or go full OHS and reserve the PVR for when they are older and in not as good a shape for open-chest?

Has anyone read about whether the high-risk patients these are being done on now are for 1st VR's or subsequent? I don't recall a mention of either in the articles I read, come to think of it.
 
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