tomdickandharry
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1sdfgdfgsgsf
Vit K2 and stenosis - VERY ENCOURAGING
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Thanks for sharing. I am always interested in hearing about potential new advancements in slowing down av stenosis. 
It would be great to see a long term evidence based study with this vitamin/supplement regime.
I don't mean to be a party pooper, but on reading this article the first thing that came to mind was that there might have been an error in the first echocardiogram. Nothing was mentioned about other tests to measure this individual's aortic stenosis progression. Echos are known to have operator error and like any test, it's not perfect. From what I have read, it can be difficult to get good echo results in people with lung disease and technician's skill affects the test's accuracy.
Certainly my echos varied quite a bit from one appt. to the next.
I understand that angiograms and TEE's can be more accurate.
I recall Tobago posting a thread that enlightened us about calcium and the progression of aortic stenosis. I would be interested in his feedback.
It would be great to see a long term evidence based study with this vitamin/supplement regime. I don't mean to be a party pooper, but on reading this article the first thing that came to mind was that there might have been an error in the first echocardiogram. Nothing was mentioned about other tests to measure this individual's aortic stenosis progression. Echos are known to have operator error and like any test, it's not perfect. From what I have read, it can be difficult to get good echo results in people with lung disease and technician's skill affects the test's accuracy.
Certainly my echos varied quite a bit from one appt. to the next.
I understand that angiograms and TEE's can be more accurate.
I recall Tobago posting a thread that enlightened us about calcium and the progression of aortic stenosis. I would be interested in his feedback.
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tomdickandharry
Member
ok. I trust what the doctor said and also the echo and I am definitely going to try all I can to avoid surgery.
Stenosis is caused by calcification of the aortic valve.
the doctor never made claims that it works and that everyone should start taking it. He only mentioned what shocked him the most.
Well, for me, I am delighted and feels like there is lot of hope. there was also another study with improving HDL can help with stenosis.
I think Vitamin K2 converts the calcium from blood and puts it to bones and thats where it belong to. So, the theory of K2 simply put works in my opinion.
More research like this was/is done in Holland.
There have been many other studies done in Holland about K2+D3 and they all found it beneficial with bone getting calcium and not your arteries.
Stenosis is caused by calcification of the aortic valve.
the doctor never made claims that it works and that everyone should start taking it. He only mentioned what shocked him the most.
Well, for me, I am delighted and feels like there is lot of hope. there was also another study with improving HDL can help with stenosis.
I think Vitamin K2 converts the calcium from blood and puts it to bones and thats where it belong to. So, the theory of K2 simply put works in my opinion.
More research like this was/is done in Holland.
There have been many other studies done in Holland about K2+D3 and they all found it beneficial with bone getting calcium and not your arteries.
I might be experiencing a similar positive effect from vitamin K2 on my aortic stenosis. Last March the pressure gradient across my bicuspid aortic valve increased much, much more than it had been increasing previously and my cardiologist said that we were going to be looking at surgery within two years. He told me to look up cardiothoracic surgeons - really scared me. Straight away I began taking vitamin K2 - 100 mcg of it as MK-7 daily. Six months later in August my pressure gradient had not increased at all ! Over the past four years it had been steadily increasing and then sharply increasing - it should have carried on increasing, it should not have stopped increasing ! My cardiologist was really surprised. I do hope that vitamin K2 is the answer. I have my next echo in March and will be able to know more then.
I wrote to a Dutch doctor, Dr Cees Vermeer, who is doing research into vitamin K2, and he told me that in animal models stenosis has been reversed with vitamin K2 - that is degenerative stenosis - but I'm hopeful this holds true for bicuspid aortic stenosis too. He said that MK-7 was fine. MK-7 has a longer half life than MK-4. MK-4 only lasts a couple of hours in the body but MK-7 can last a few days and build up.
I wrote to a Dutch doctor, Dr Cees Vermeer, who is doing research into vitamin K2, and he told me that in animal models stenosis has been reversed with vitamin K2 - that is degenerative stenosis - but I'm hopeful this holds true for bicuspid aortic stenosis too. He said that MK-7 was fine. MK-7 has a longer half life than MK-4. MK-4 only lasts a couple of hours in the body but MK-7 can last a few days and build up.
tomdickandharry
Member
I certainly appreciate if you can share the Vit K2 supplement you took and if it was combination of MK-4 and MK-7? and where did you buy it.
Also, can you tell me about your Vit D3 supplement?
this seems to my answers to my sincere cries.
Also, can you tell me about your Vit D3 supplement?
this seems to my answers to my sincere cries.
For vitamin K2 I'm taking Jarrow Formulas and Now Foods (took Now Foods when I couldn't get the Jarrow Formulas) - they're both MK-7. I buy them mail order from iHerb.com. I don't take MK-4 - as I wrote above, MK-4 has a very short half life of only a few hours so it's in and out of your body in no time, whereas MK-7 stays and gets stored for use.
I've been taking a high dose vitamin D3 supplement (Dekristol) for nearly four years now - a 20,000 IU capsule once a week in the winter and once a fortnight in the summer, that gives approximately 3,000 IU per day in the winter and 1,500 IU per day in the summer. I get this D3 on prescription and I get my levels of 25(OH)D checked regularly by my endocrinologist - currently 60 ng/dL (149 nmol/L) which is optimal. Before I was getting D3 on prescription I was buying Carlson Labs D3.
Even if this K2 doesn't reverse my stenosis I still think it's worth taking as K2 has a lot of other positive effects on health, as does D3.
tomdickand harry,
I completely understand you wanting to avoid the surgery and hope that this regime proves to work! I have a tissue valve and would be thrilled if this regime helps prevent calcification on this valve as well.
I found the link regarding Vitamin D that Tobago posted last year. Of course, advancements are made every year and that is my hope.
http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?36265-Vitamin-D-Absorption-and-Aortic-Stenosis
I completely understand you wanting to avoid the surgery and hope that this regime proves to work! I have a tissue valve and would be thrilled if this regime helps prevent calcification on this valve as well.
I found the link regarding Vitamin D that Tobago posted last year. Of course, advancements are made every year and that is my hope.
http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?36265-Vitamin-D-Absorption-and-Aortic-Stenosis
Julian
Well-known member
This would be freaking amazing! On a side note I don't trust standard echos too much, I had one measure 1.0 cm one year and the next year 1.6, I thought my valve widened too, till several months later the symptoms were deadly.
That's why I haven't made too much of a song and dance about my stenosis seeming to not advance on the last echo when it had been doing so all these years and getting worse. Next echo is in March and if it's still not advancing then I may begin to sing about it and vitamin K2.
Even though there is no concrete proof in this Surely it males sense for everyone to with a bicuspid valve or even tissue valve to take vitamin k2 as it is a harmless supplement. Obviously anyone on warfarin should avoid k2 supplements but if I was in Anne's position I would take it every day just incase it did work. There is nothing to lose and a potential gain, even if it delays an op for 6 months- year.
However, I would agree with comments above- echo's can be all over the place and can be very inconsistent. It also depends on the technician and machine.
However, I would agree with comments above- echo's can be all over the place and can be very inconsistent. It also depends on the technician and machine.
There are a few threads here about vit k2 if you search with links to a couple different studies,(Bone density, anti calcification in arteries etc, One of the problems is it is hard to get, and as some mentioned above, Vit "k2" isn't 1 vitamen, but is more like a group of vitamens M-4 m-7 etc and it looks like from various research that different ones do different jobs.
Doesn't this doctor tht the article came from sell alot of products? He might be very reliabe but i like to know what kind of site info comes from, is is peer reviewed, pubmed or people that sell things they recomend.
Doesn't this doctor tht the article came from sell alot of products? He might be very reliabe but i like to know what kind of site info comes from, is is peer reviewed, pubmed or people that sell things they recomend.
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Hi Lyn,
I live in the UK and have to get my vitamin K2 from the US - but it's easy to get ! If it's easy for someone in the UK to get from the US it surely must be easy for someone already in the US ? Vitamin K2 is not an expensive supplement either - two months supply of MK-7 costs me in the region of $15 (from iHerb - very reliable company) ! MK-7 is the one most usually used. MK-4 has a short half life, MK-7 much longer so it is more useful - otherwise they're the same - there are even more forms like MK-8 and MK-9.
I wouldn't take 1000 mcg as Dr Davis suggests - from my extensive reading about vitamin K2 that dose seems excessive and I wonder if it is a typo. But it was from Dr Davis's heartscanblog that I first heard about K2. I get my info now about K2 from pubmed - Dr Cees Vermeer is the leading researcher into K2.
Here is a very comprehensive article about K2: http://www.lmreview.com/articles/vi...Prevention-of-Age-Associated-Chronic-Disease/
tomdickandharry
Member
Well, vit K2 has two kinds (or more) MK-4 and MK-7).
I think the doctor suggested to take 1000 mcg. It is MK-4 of 1000 mcg and 100 mcg of MK-7.
I did check k2 on shelves yesterday, found one had both MK-4(1000) and MK-7(100). But there are others out there that only has MK-7.
also found D3+K2. this had 5000 D3 + 1000 MK-4 and 100 MK-2.
I think the doctor suggested to take 1000 mcg. It is MK-4 of 1000 mcg and 100 mcg of MK-7.
I did check k2 on shelves yesterday, found one had both MK-4(1000) and MK-7(100). But there are others out there that only has MK-7.
also found D3+K2. this had 5000 D3 + 1000 MK-4 and 100 MK-2.
See my post above tomdickandharry - and read the link I posted. MK-7 is fine - it has a much longer half life than MK-4 which leaves the body in a couple of hours. Doses of MK-4 have to be higher because it leaves so quickly and isn't stored. MK-7 is stored in tissues so much better. I think Dr Davis made a typo - I know of no one taking 1000 mcg of MK-7 and I know a lot of people taking it on osteoporosis forums I'm on. What helps the heart also helps the bones.
RWTH Aachen University (Germany) has a clinical trial underway, phase one: "Vitamin K Supplement for the Inhibition for the progression of Calcific aortic stenosis". The estimated completion date is December 2014. It will be interesting to see the results (hopefully, they will be promising).
Here is the link if you are interested:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT00785109
Here is the link if you are interested:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT00785109
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P.S. They are still recruiting. :wink2:
tomdickandharry
Member
so, whoever said that echo results can be doubted, the same question was asked to Dr. williams.
Question:
Echocardiograms can have substantial variability, certain assumptions are built into the mathematical formulas used to evaluate aortic valve stenosis. Was there any differences noted in the doppler velocity (Lvot, cw)or outflow tract dimension? Small differences in these measurements can yield large variability in aortic valve area. Just playing devils advocate here……
Dr, Williams answered:
The aortic valve areas were obtained with 3 views on the maximal aortic supravalvular velocity, using both the standard transducer as well as the Pedoff. On both studies, the LV outflow tract diameter was 2.1 cm. The second aortic valve diameter was also confirmed with planimetry.
Notably, peak aortic valve velocity dropped from 20 mmHg to 9 mmHg. I watched the echo tech (a very capable one, by the way) while he interrogated the valve. I am confident that we obtained the maximal peak velocity.
All in all, I believe it is a real effect.
Question:
Echocardiograms can have substantial variability, certain assumptions are built into the mathematical formulas used to evaluate aortic valve stenosis. Was there any differences noted in the doppler velocity (Lvot, cw)or outflow tract dimension? Small differences in these measurements can yield large variability in aortic valve area. Just playing devils advocate here……
Dr, Williams answered:
The aortic valve areas were obtained with 3 views on the maximal aortic supravalvular velocity, using both the standard transducer as well as the Pedoff. On both studies, the LV outflow tract diameter was 2.1 cm. The second aortic valve diameter was also confirmed with planimetry.
Notably, peak aortic valve velocity dropped from 20 mmHg to 9 mmHg. I watched the echo tech (a very capable one, by the way) while he interrogated the valve. I am confident that we obtained the maximal peak velocity.
All in all, I believe it is a real effect.
I did some searches, trying to find a list of Vitamin K2 foods from a site that seemed less likely to have an agenda. It's kind of interesting how a lot of the main foods with K2 are ones "heart patients" are typically warned to avoid. Of course heart patients and heart valve patients often have different issues. But maybe the next time I dive into a liverwurst pate I won't need to struggle with a guilty conscience?!? Anyway, the following is from eHow.com:
As a group, Vitamin K allows blood to clot, protects bones from osteoporosis and prevents oxidative cellular damage. Vitamin K2, specifically, protects against osteoporosis, pathological calcification and cardiovascular blockages by depositing calcium in the bones and blood and preventing calcium from being deposited in the vessels which causes calcification, a risk for coronary artery disease.
Vitamins K1 vs. K2
Vitamin K1 allows the blood to clot and has anti-inflammatory effects. Vitamin K1 is also found in many foods. Vitamin K2, however, is less common in foods, but protects bone mass and is more suitable for protecting bones from osteoporosis.
Vegetable Sources of K2
Fermented foods such as fermented soy beans, are excellent sources for vitamin K2. Natto, a by-product of fermented soy beans eaten in Japan, is the best source of vitamin K2. Vitamin K2 may also be consumed as a vitamin supplement.
Animal Sources of K2
Organ meats such as liver, eggs, cheeses, fermented cheeses and curd are good sources of vitamin K2.
Other Considerations
Vegetables that are high in vitamin K, such as green peas, can also be a good source of vitamin K2. For example, green peas are a good source of vitamin K, some of which is converted into K2 by the body. Other excellent sources of vitamin K include spinach, Swiss chard, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, kale, asparagus, mustard greens, carrots and green beans. Similarly, some soy products contain a bacteria that can convert vitamin K1 into vitamin K2.
As a group, Vitamin K allows blood to clot, protects bones from osteoporosis and prevents oxidative cellular damage. Vitamin K2, specifically, protects against osteoporosis, pathological calcification and cardiovascular blockages by depositing calcium in the bones and blood and preventing calcium from being deposited in the vessels which causes calcification, a risk for coronary artery disease.
Vitamins K1 vs. K2
Vitamin K1 allows the blood to clot and has anti-inflammatory effects. Vitamin K1 is also found in many foods. Vitamin K2, however, is less common in foods, but protects bone mass and is more suitable for protecting bones from osteoporosis.
Vegetable Sources of K2
Fermented foods such as fermented soy beans, are excellent sources for vitamin K2. Natto, a by-product of fermented soy beans eaten in Japan, is the best source of vitamin K2. Vitamin K2 may also be consumed as a vitamin supplement.
Animal Sources of K2
Organ meats such as liver, eggs, cheeses, fermented cheeses and curd are good sources of vitamin K2.
Other Considerations
Vegetables that are high in vitamin K, such as green peas, can also be a good source of vitamin K2. For example, green peas are a good source of vitamin K, some of which is converted into K2 by the body. Other excellent sources of vitamin K include spinach, Swiss chard, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, kale, asparagus, mustard greens, carrots and green beans. Similarly, some soy products contain a bacteria that can convert vitamin K1 into vitamin K2.
from what I remember the good thing about K2 is it is produced by normal bacteria in the gut, so unless there are some problems with absorbtion etc., most people aren't deficient in K2..
I haven't followed this whole thread but it caught my eye that this post seems to be describing velocity in mmHg, which is a measure of pressure. Either someone has left out some information from that line, or has made an error. (Perhaps they meant to give a velocity at a given pressure?)
