Unexplained pain and numbness

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Lynn

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I happen to know a couple of them and they aren't the ones saying weird stuff that doesn't fit with mainstream science (like peer reviewed journals).

the other interesting thing is that quite a many come here to express frustration with doctors and main stream medical / clinical advice. So "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of thing.

Basically I read it as : if you don't agree with my view then "you aren't a doctor"
No doubt there is a ”diversity“ of opinions on this board lol. I am often surprised when there is over the top push back against medical science as most of us here wouldn’t be alive today without the benefit of it.

Overwhelming though, I really appreciate this board for all the members who are leading by example. Living their best lives despite health challenges. I also appreciate the “real talk” as my kids would call it. People telling it like it is.
 

carolinemc

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Only once they get it. Before that they say it happens to other people.

Why else would one keep doing that drug?
It is called addiction, cigarettes has many addictive properties to keep one addicted. I was a smoker till OPS in 2001, have been somber since then.
 

ScribeWithALancet

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Oct 27, 2019
Messages
76
No doubt there is a ”diversity“ of opinions on this board lol. I am often surprised when there is over the top push back against medical science as most of us here wouldn’t be alive today without the benefit of it.

Overwhelming though, I really appreciate this board for all the members who are leading by example. Living their best lives despite health challenges. I also appreciate the “real talk” as my kids would call it. People telling it like it is.
My cardiac surgeon was mad as hell at my health plan for following "official" medical science as represented by the CDC/NIH/FDA guidelines here in the USA instead of past medical experience of the cardiac surgeons at his hospital. The question is what is pushback against medical science. It has been asked "what is truth". I would ask, "what is medical science". or maybe more simply "what is science"

My answer would be that science is what follows the "scientific method" that I learned in college and that provides full access to all raw data to allow replication of the methods and results. All to often, the researchers do not allow access to all data preaching that they must "respect patient privacy" nor access to all methods (although some give the exact software and subroutinesiutilized). Ionaides in his report, on Why Most Research Results are Wrong, gave a good deal of reasons that go far beyond the simple money buys results (not that it cannot, nor that it frequently does). However, many other causes really do exist.

Recently, in the USA, two government reports were found on US government web sites. The first was the report approving the Pfizer vaccine. It had an appendix that showed more people died after taking the vaccine then die.d in the control group that took the placebo vaccine. (see This Is What Makes Reasonable People Cry Foul, Conspiracy And Crime!!! Berenson is now banned from Twitter, et.al. Their fact checkers claim that he is spreading medical misinformation. Read both sources and decide for yourself.)

The other was a Dept of Defense ppt presentation from a Dod website. It showed that the DoD had reports based on Medicare bills that showed the vaccines lost their effectiveness in preventing Covid infections and in preventing the vaccinated from spreading Covid. The title was Entitled “Effectiveness of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines Against the Delta Variant Among 5.6M Medicare Beneficiaries 65 Years and Older,” a slide presentation dated Sept. 28, 2021, reveals that among the elderly especially, Chinese Virus injections do not work to protect against disease. (one source: DoD Data Show That 60% Of "Covid" Hospitalizations In 65 ...)

Both of these were during the period the US federal government was pushing vaccines as a way to protect people against hospitalization and. death. So what is "science", the National Institute of Health (NIH), Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and Federal Drug Administration official policy positions or their reports and Medicare data that seem to contradict these positions?

I like reading the peer reviewed literature but particularly like both double blind patient matched studies AND also like case studies done with real patients in an outpatient setting.

Listening to scientists that have published a lot give video lectures is also useful. Paul Marik, Intensive Care Professor at Old Dominion University, Dr. McCullough, Dr. Robert Mallone, and Attorney Tom Renz (a medical malpractice attorney whose mother got Covid) gave presentations at a Jewish meeting in New York (available at Vaccine Risks In Children – Renz Law ) and for an alternative view read the fact checkers at Yahoo and FactCheck.afp.com (available at: Inaccurate claims about 'rabbinical court' opposing Covid ... an at Inaccurate claims about 'rabbinical court' opposing Covid ... )

As was asked "What is Truth" and "What is Science" When the bureaucratic national experts disagree with the professional practicing experts where is the truth. I was once a "national expert" in my field of engineering. When asked for an opinion on a particular "local" project by a congressional politician who wanted to know why the earmark project was not working, I had to beg off and tell him that he needed to ask for a study to look at the issues on a local level and on a "as actually installed and operating" basis even though I could provide an educated guess at the reasons. Real facts are sometimes difficult to get at by members of the public who cannot afford the $100k and up of real world studies taking months or years to complete.

My cardiac surgeon knew a LOT more than my cardiologist at the time of my congestive heart failure. I had no idea that there was a conflict in the interpretation of the science of how often to do tests for people with my medical condition. I simply trusted my cardiologist to know "the truth" and "the medical science". I was wrong. He knew what the experts at the CDC were saying and did not know what the experts at the health plan's hospital heart surgery unit were saying. You have to read broadly and this site helps point you in the right directions as to what to read.

However, regardless of how unfortunate for us it is, truth and science are still subjective. Just recall that old fashioned Greek, Jewish and Roman logic and science underpin math and that math and logic in turn underpin science. Recall also that science is not religion and religion is not science.

For me, if it is not testable, questionable and replicable, it is not "real" science.

Walk in Peace,
ScribeWithALancet
 
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pellicle

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truth and science are still subjective.
truth maybe, but science tries not to be subjective. Science is a process for iteratively testing theories in order to find what best describes reality. Agreed that there is some areas which are not yet clear, which in Science is usually made plain and the "more research is needed" attached. True, not all things are within the domain of science (such as untestable propositions).

Its not open to "subjective acceptance" or "opinion" ... if you doubt the existence of atoms then you should prove it. If you can't then (to be frank) you're taking nonsense and you need to accept the position of accepted science.

Its quite a topic, so I recommend reading this:

Assuming of course you want to actually understand what science is.

Subjective Truth is belief or Religion.
 
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Lynn

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British Columbia
Scribewithalancet,

I’m confused by your post, as you seem to agree with following a scientific method and be supportive of peer reviewed research yet you then suggest watching videos from several Doctors spreading fringe theories for which they provide no credible evidence.

You also reference two studies you say have people upset, when in fact a reading of these studies shows that the vaccine is in fact effective and the information they present is clearly supportive of the use of vaccines to fight Covid. Information in these studies has either been misunderstood, or deliberately taken out of context to support anti vaccine conspiracy theories. Let me give you an example; in the Pfizer approval they were referencing ALL Cause Mortality. Not Covid deaths. The idea that more people died of Covid in the vaccine group vs the placebo group is simply untrue.

The study on older adults also clearly shows that the vaccine remains very effective in those over 65. Not as effective as it is in much younger people but that isn’t news to anyone. I won’t repeat the numbers here, people can read the study for themselves and see just how effective the vaccines are, even in people over 65. If folks are upset about vaccines being approved based on the information in these studies, they obviously did not read or did not understand the studies.

There are pieces of your post I can agree with or at least understand your position, however if you are using these studies and the opinions of several of the doctors you name to justify the idea that science is subjective, I must respectfully disagree.
 
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RAS

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May 1, 2020
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Omaha, NE
I’m confused by your post, as you seem to agree with following a scientific method and be supportive of peer reviewed research yet you then suggest watching videos from several Doctors spreading fringe theories for which they provide no credible evidence.
Agree.

Recently, in the USA, two government reports were found on US government web sites. The first was the report approving the Pfizer vaccine. It had an appendix that showed more people died after taking the vaccine then die.d in the control group that took the placebo vaccine. (see This Is What Makes Reasonable People Cry Foul, Conspiracy And Crime!!!

The link to the Berenson article on Brian Peckford's (a Canadian Politician) blog is an example of what happens when untrained individuals try to interpret statistical clinical data. Sorting out the primary study objective (safety and efficacy of Coivd-19 vaccine) from effects of other factors/risks including comorbidities and age is not a trivial task. There is nothing in Berenson's background to indicate he has training and experience sufficient to interpret clinical data better than trained clinical and statistical experts who do this for a living.

The Pfizer study concluded that the vaccine has high efficacy. If this was wrong, then wouldn't we see that in real world results?

Below are real world COVID-19 hospitalization trends for my state. Which conclusion does this support? Berenson's? or Pfizer's?


1638465018909.png


How about Washington State Covid-19 Hospitalization and Deaths report issued 12/1?. https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Do...-tables/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf


How could anyone look at these results and conclude that Berenson is right?
 

ScribeWithALancet

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Oct 27, 2019
Messages
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truth maybe, but science tries not to be subjective. Science is a process for iteratively testing theories in order to find what best describes reality. Agreed that there is some areas which are not yet clear, which in Science is usually made plain and the "more research is needed" attached. True, not all things are within the domain of science (such as untestable propositions).

Its not open to "subjective acceptance" or "opinion" ... if you doubt the existence of atoms then you should prove it. If you can't then (to be frank) you're taking nonsense and you need to accept the position of accepted science.

Its quite a topic, so I recommend reading this:

Assuming of course you want to actually understand what science is.

Subjective Truth is belief or Religion.
Pellicle,
You said
" science tries not to be subjective."
and
"... if you doubt the existence of atoms then you should prove it."
Unfortunately, government high level executives love saying that they "represent" science and that anyone who disagrees with them is anti-science.
I worked in engineering research for 40+ years and learned that conducting replicable research is expensive. Conducting case study research was expensive enough. But saying "then you should prove it" is asking for a lot of $$$ in this day and age. The best we can do, as individuals, is to look at research that others have conducted and hope to prove it to ourselves from that research.

You also said
"you need to accept the position of accepted science."
I take exception to this and recall the words I read of a dean of a medical school to his graduating class. If you think you have learned the state of the art, remember that what you learned almost contradicts what the graduating class learned 50 years ago. And they learned the state of the science at the time. What they will teach 50 years from now will probably obsolete what you are learning now" That is not an exact quote. Sorry. But it captures my opinion of accepted science. One thing that I learned in 40 years of engineering research is that one's goal is to upset "accepted science". Most accepted science, particularly in medicine and economics is professional opinion that in some cases is based on replicable science and in other cases is based on accepted science that was not rigorously tested.

My wife worked as a nursing student, 50 years ago, with a diabetic doctor who believed in the Ketogenic Diet as the way to treat diabetics. He was thought by other doctors at a time to be fringe and wacky. However, his patients were impressed by the fact that his treatment worked and that of the other doctors lead to a slow but steady worsening of their condition. However, the other doctors were practicing the "accepted science" of the time. When I became prediabetic, I followed a near Ketogenic Diet and became non prediabetic. A friend, who became diabetic at the same time I became prediabetic, did not believe me and followed the American Diabetes Association guidelines. He is now dead. Accepted Science is frequently not tested because unlike Physics Laws and most Chemistry, it cannot be readily tested at moderate cost. In my strucural engineering classes, they emphasized test, test, test. But the costs were moderate. When the cost for a double blind, patient matched large scale, multi year test can approach the hundreds of millions, Accepted Science is frequently not properly tested. In addition, Big Pharma can use the rules to exclude case studies by "fringe" doctors such as my wife's nursing sponsor.

I agree with you that science is "quite a topic" but must respectfully disagree with you about accepting "accepted science" based an my personal experience in engineering research. Your personal experience probably varies from mine and results in different decisions. We have both survived the "epidemic" and are therefore "successful" in our approaches to using science and the scientific method.

Walk in Peace,
ScribeWithALancet
 

tom in MO

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Jan 17, 2012
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Location
MO USA
For a couple months now my left shoulder will begin aching badly if I lay an my right side and the finger tips at first would only go numb when shoulder ached but for couple weeks now numbness although only slight it is constant. Am over a year out for artificial mitral valve replacement. Found very small artical mentioning numbness as side effect to long term warfarin use. Has anyone heard or dealt with this?
I have similar symptoms. They used to come and go and not they come more than go. It's recently been diagnosed as spinal stenosis and peripheral neuropathy working in concert. It's not related to warfarin or my valve. However due to warfarin I cannot take ibuprofen for treatment more than 2 months. Because of warfarin some of the spinal treatments for stenosis are complicated or contraindicated.
 

pellicle

Professional Dingbat
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
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Location
Queensland, OzTrayLeeYa
Unfortunately, government high level executives love saying that they "represent" science and that anyone who disagrees with them is anti-science.
Slightly different to questions about science per se however.

Also, Engineers are seldom scientists. Engineers are trained in using the outcomes of science. You in your promotion of quackery seem to lack the ability to properly discern science. You say we are successful in our approaches? Well when you GET COVID, and survive it with minimal symptoms, then you will have performed the experiment, until then dodging a bullet is not proof of process, it is survivor bias or confirmation bias.

Medicine is also not a proper science, but its practitioners are more like artists who draw upon science. These people seldom understand statistical maths.

I feel that promoting processes which have not passed any proper bar (yes, I've read those posts of yours about stuff like ivermectin) is a bit amoral at best, but then if fools believe you and fools die, well we did always need less fools. Sadly we don't just let them die.


Furious with the anti-vaccine memes and conspiracy theories flooding social media, one administrator of such a site said he sought to highlight the political and geographic patterns of the Delta wave, which has disproportionately torn through conservative communities and red states with low vaccination rates.
The stories are often remarkably similar: Anti-government memes and posts dismissing the coronavirus or vaccines give way to announcements about feeling sick and testing positive for the virus. Then there are often requests for prayers. Sometimes there are selfies taken while hooked up to breathing machines and fearful updates about imminent intubation. Most end with loved ones sharing R.I.P. posts. Many include links to GoFundMe campaigns created to defray funeral costs.
Me? I chose to follow mainstream science evidence and got double vaccinated over a period. I hope you are too, because the pandemic ain't over yet ...
 
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