Pradaxa, Xarelto, Warfarin

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Well, I'm always up for a discussion! :)

Let's see, start with a well known anticoagulant, affectionately known for being rat poison, then add a monopoly market and half a century's worth of frustration (much unwarranted of course) from patients and doctors alike, then add to the mix new exciting drugs (new is always better, right?) that have an FDA stamp of approval, a few headline grabbing clinical trial results (with disclaimers of course), nods of approval from physicians everywhere, and most importantly, drumroll please, extra convenience! Well, is it any wonder then that Pradaxa, and likely soon Xarelto, is flying off the shelves (half a million patients in the first year) of pharmacies around the world! Who cares about safety when you have convenience after all!

Ok, in case you were wondering, there is some sarcasm in my opening, and I've also put some thought into the subject previously. For what it's worth, I'm not on any of these 3 drugs, so would like to think I'm generally unbiased. Someday I'm sure I will be, though, so I'm a very interested observer. I also have a family member with A-Fib so have done a fair amount of research, primarily focused on Pradaxa vs Warfarin.

There were several threads back in the Fall about Pradaxa, and I'm going to take the lazy approach here (sorry!) and refer you to those rather than trying to restate too much of what I included there:

http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?38952-Dibagitran-Pradaxa-(-Do-not-Take-it-)
http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?39056-From-Pradaxa-to-Coumadin-and-Back
http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?39453-Blood-thinners-for-life

Long story short, the "yay" or "nay" vote on these new kids on the block might inevitably come down to a single factor for some such as "Great, no more blood testing!" or "No antidote, are you kidding me?". I'm much more of a proof is in the pudding type of guy, so for me, everything matters, and it generally all boils down to medical effectiveness in the end. Most importantly, not only is there no proof for valve patients yet, but there's really no pudding either, clinical trials just getting started.

Now, for the approved A-Fib group, there are at least these options now. That's the key word, though: option. Despite what the myriad commercials or well-designed websites might lead you to believe, the FDA has not granted "superiority" to either Pradaxa or Xarelto. They are approved as "non-inferior". They both include a very important and similar disclaimer as well, something to the effect of efficacy results "not in comparison to Warfarin under good control". So, our best (Pradaxa and Xarelto) patients beat your worst (Warfarin) patients...seriously? :confused2:

Ok, anyway, this was supposed to be my lazy short version, but here I am going on and on again. Please note that I did a lot of research on Pradaxa but not Xarelto, but on brief glance, many of the same issues I mentioned for Pradaxa in those other threads seem somewhat similar. I should mention that one of the coolest resources I've found for all of this was the actual FDA Review Committee materials (basically the "evidence") that were put together as part of the Pradaxa approval. The general public only hears that Pradaxa is approved. They do not openly disseminate the "evidence analysis". There were a lot of critiques of the Pradaxa trial results in the FDA review (who seem to be extremely thorough) that generally no one would ever hear about.

So, does all of this mean I don't think Warfarin should/will ever be replaced for valve patients? No, not at all. I just think that to a large degree anticoagulants are anticoagulants, risk is inherent, and until the proof really is in the pudding, newer or easier isn't necessarily better for the most important factor of balancing stroke prevention and bleeding risk.
 
ElectLive, I feel that we should be on a first name basis. It is always educating and entertaining to read your posts. This is a compliment not sarcasm.

I did read several threads on here about Pradaxa. My PCP mentioned Xarelto and after having read their own disclaimers (i.e. unstoppable bleeding requiring full blood transfusion) I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole.

Either way, a well-managed INR is a well-managed INR. I think that there are so many billions of dollars in the anticoagulant industry that it warrants much research from good/evil pharma. companies. My bet is that while nothing at the moment seems to be sticking out, there will be options in our life time, and Pradaxa and Xarelto are just the beginning of it.

Vadim
 
I have liited experience with warfarin (my first 3 months after surgery, none since - tissue valve), but I found it to be only a monor pain. Sure, it took a while to get my INR stabilized, but after that, it was life as usual. Of course, in that short time and being that soon after surgery, I was not doing any activities that would have likely resulted in injury, so I never had to deal with that aspect. It was just another med to be managed. The fact that would have kept me from opting for either of the other drugs is the lack of a rapid antidote. I would feel that there are too many risks in my life for that to be acceptable.

So, I'm with EL. If or when they come up with another replacement for warfarin that has a rapid antidote, then I would consider it. Until then, I guess I'd stay with the "gold standard" even if it is also used as rat poison. At least it can be controlled.
 
Millions of people (myself included) have used - or continue to use Warfarin for their anticoagulation management.

Yes, it's not perfect. Pradaxa and other anticoagulants may reduce the need for testing (but maybe not) and may, theoretically, be less of a hassle to take. However, without a good antidote, the risks of uncontrollable bleeding probably exist.

For me, I'm satisfied with warfarin and, when I have enough strips, I test weekly.

An issue that hasn't been brought up is the actual cost for the new medications. Personally, I'd rather pay a dime or two formy daily warfarin dose than pay $8 a day (even if my insurance company pays for it, this $240 alternative ends up inreasing insurance premiums or takes resources from the Government agency that pays for the medication).

IF they ever come up with a medication that can prevent the risk of clotting around the valve (or reduces clotting risk for people with Atrial fibrillation), and costs about as much as warfarin, THEN I'd be interested in it.

For now, I'm going to stick with Warfarin.
 
I may be wrong, but I believe that when Warfarin first came out, there was no testing for it either. I would hazard a guess that a) in the next several years there is a way to test anticoagulation for those on Pradaxa or Xarelto (or any other new drugs), b) unless a happens, there will be some issues with controlling bleeding in several individuals and doctors won't have the peace of mind that Warfarin has in terms of testing and dose control, c) that some people who don't react well to warfarin will have little choice but to use the new options, d) that prices for the new drugs come down after the patents run out (or maybe even before), and e) that some long term side affects of the new drugs start coming out in the next couple years.

My personal interest is in their use in children and female heart valve patients wanting to have children. That would be a HUGE breakthrough but will need TONS more testing.
 
ElectLive, I feel that we should be on a first name basis.

Vadim - Thanks for the kind words. You know, I actually prefer "EL" which is a hybrid of my user name here and a persistent nickname ("L") from my college years. I also hope it makes it slightly harder for my young girls to try and "google" Daddy later in life and discover all the embarassing stories I've told about them here! :cool:

This is definitely just the beginning, and progress no doubt will be made. While I could argue that the A-Fib approvals were perhaps a bit premature, speaking from the selfish valve patient perspective, it's of course a very good thing that they are. Valve trials will begin next, while at the same time, there will be a large amount of post-market analysis in the hundreds of thousands of A-Fib patients already on board.
 
Steve - As you might guess, they are working on developing an antidote for Pradaxa, but no mention thus far (that I've seen) on when it might be available.
 
One thing that Warfarin has in its favor is that Vit. K injection can get your INR back in range relatively fast. Not sure I have seen a safe way for others yet. Well, Xarelto requires a full blood transfusion, so I guess it is reversible as well - ouch.
 
I may be wrong, but I believe that when Warfarin first came out, there was no testing for it either. I would hazard a guess that a) in the next several years there is a way to test anticoagulation for those on Pradaxa or Xarelto (or any other new drugs), ...

My personal interest is in their use in children and female heart valve patients wanting to have children. That would be a HUGE breakthrough but will need TONS more testing.

Sarah,

The whole selling point that the pharma companies are making is that Pradaxa doesn't need testing, and that there's no dosage adjustment needed.

Having an anticoagulant for female valve patients wanting to have children without the birth defects that warfarin can cause is great, but there isn't a pharma company in the world that's going to test their drugs on pregnant females. Waaayyyy to much risk.
 
I may be wrong, but I believe that when Warfarin first came out, there was no testing for it either.

No, there were no INR tests way back then. However, very long-time warfarin patients have described fairly antiquated methods of guesstimating the level of anticoagulation. So, there were attempts at determining how well the warfarin was working. RCB is one of those who have described this, and he's been on warfarin for perhaps 50 years. He had his first mechanical valve surgery over 50 years ago, and he's still ticking.
 
My father was on coumadin in the early sixties.
When he had blood in his urine, they lowered his dose. :eek:
There was no testing and doctors/pharmacists were feeling their way with dosing.
 
Both drugs (Pradaxa and Xarelto) are specifically NOT approved for use by anyone with a heart valve of ANY type, including tissue. They have not been tested for use with artificial valves, and the FDA does not want people to just "accidentally" graduate to a mechanical valve from a tissue valve and continue either of these drug in the belief that it would protect them from clots caused by their mechanical valve. No one has done clinical studies specifically for valves at this time.

So, there's no data available as to whether either would work successfully or as well as Coumadin does. That means, "do not use it for this."

As far as regular testing, Xarelto doesn't require it at this time, when being used for its approved uses. I don't know about Pradaxa. Xarelto (Rivaroxiban) is approved for use for in "non-valvular" AFib. This means it can be used by people who have Atrial Fibrillation, so long as they have no valve involvement or valve issue. Again, the FDA doesn't want people to wind up using either of these drugs instead of Coumadin for anticlotting on a mechanical valve, because there has been no testing of them for that use, and thus there is no evidence that either would work for that purpose.

The best you can do is petition the companies that make these substances to do valve trials with their drugs. Then at least we'll know.

Best wishes,
 
Bob, this was extremely helpful post. I've been reading up on Xarelto and see no research done on the aortic mechanical valves either, or for that matter, approval for that use. I guess, I should have done more of my own research before being lazy and throwing this up for a debate.
 
These companies are probably testing these drugs in lab animals -- their hope, of course, is to demonstrate that these medications are effective for those with mechanical (or tissue) valves -- that way, with millions in advertising, they can convince doctors that we should be paying $8 or more each day for a drug that is well known, with decades of experience, and costs less than 20 cents a day.

Sure - it would be nice to be able to take one pill a day and not worry about testing -- but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra expense and added risk.
 
Steve - As you might guess, they are working on developing an antidote for Pradaxa, but no mention thus far (that I've seen) on when it might be available.

This is an old thread buto just wanted to update two things...

Here is some info on the development of a Pradaxa antidote: http://www.boehringer-ingelheim.com/news/news_releases/press_releases/2012/05_november_2012dabigatranetexilate.html.

More importantly, the Pradaxa valve dosing study was begun and has already been halted, as indicated here: http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?41118-Study-of-dabigatran-in-mechanical-heart-valve-patients-halted.
 
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