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pellicle said:
Well while its my personal preference to do so, I did cease when you asked nicely (and gave reasons such as your kids :)
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An Aussie who doesn’t swear? I think that I would be more likely to believe that the vaccine has nanites that will be controlling our brains, than believe there is such a thing!😭
 
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pellicle said:
Well while its my personal preference to do so, I did cease when you asked nicely (and gave reasons such as your kids :)
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You were never every other word. Maybe every third or fourth. I worked with a guy at a grocery store that could string together quite the litany. It was impressive. A true artist.
 
At the risk of being called names by the righteous closed-minded on this site, I would like someone to explain to me that if getting the COVID vaccine is necessary to protect the vulnerable populations in our midst, why is it that the largest hospitals in Tallahassee (and probably many other hospitals) do not require its doctors and nurses to get vaccinated even though they have direct contact with the affirmed and elderly? Could it be that there are many healthcare professionals who believe that getting a vaccine that is still being tested and not fully approved by the FDA is potentially a greater risk to themselves than actually getting COVID-19, which for many people is a non-event that only strengthens the immune system and confers greater resistance to this virus. And no, I am not an antivaxxer except when it comes to experimental vaccines. Given the known cardiac-related side effects of this one I am somewhat surprised that so many of my fellow heart valve patients have been so quick to jump on the band wagon.
 
cldlhd said:
This conversation is obviously meaningless but just for s**** and giggles What does it being isolated matter? In other words if there's a virus going around the world that is killing people and there is a vaccine for it What does it matter if we don't know exactly where it came from? Or is this just the beginning to feed the conspiracy theory narrative?
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" Or is this just the beginning to feed the conspiracy theory narrative? " This. I've been down this road on this particular talking point and no matter how many times you post links to multiple different labs that have both sampled the virus from infected patients (ie isolated) and sequenced the various viral clades, there is only denial.

"What does it matter if we don't know exactly where it came from?" See, that's a useful question. Whether it jumped species or was the result of a lab leak, or some mashup of the two will actually tell us useful things about the virus itself and probably should set policy for how to handle future outbreaks.
 
I for one am glad to be vaccinated. Personal choice is a factor, but remaining non vaccinated will have repercussions. My students for the fall term can not live in residence unless fully vaccinated.

This summary doc on vaccine reactions certainly puts a human face to the pandemic effects wrt vaccine roll-out. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N0tMny8Kkl2jjVv93qwZQ65JvFbzfPN1/view
 
QuincyRunner said:
Given the known cardiac-related side effects of this one...
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Known deaths from the vaccine in the US (all causes including thrombosis, myocarditis and allergic anaphylaxis) are approximately 8-10k in a population of about 151m fully vaccinated. Death rate is .00006.

Death rate from Covid in the US is about 1.7% or about 25 thousand times more lethal than all vaccine side effects combined.

The math is easy.
 
QuincyRunner said:
At the risk of being called names by the righteous closed-minded on this site, I would like someone to explain to me that if getting the COVID vaccine is necessary to protect the vulnerable populations in our midst, why is it that the largest hospitals in Tallahassee (and probably many other hospitals) do not require its doctors and nurses to get vaccinated even though they have direct contact with the affirmed and elderly? Could it be that there are many healthcare professionals who believe that getting a vaccine that is still being tested and not fully approved by the FDA is potentially a greater risk to themselves than actually getting COVID-19, which for many people is a non-event that only strengthens the immune system and confers greater resistance to this virus. And no, I am not an antivaxxer except when it comes to experimental vaccines. Given the known cardiac-related side effects of this one I am somewhat surprised that so many of my fellow heart valve patients have been so quick to jump on the band wagon.
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Hi @QuincyRunner, I'd love to help here if you're really interested in answers, as your opening comments lead me to believe.

On your first question about hospitals, there are a number of reasons that medical institutions do not mandate vaccines (including my own), COVID and otherwise (but typically seek to use persuasion). The reasons for this include:
  1. expecting some employees in a diverse workforce to have religious objections (e.g., Christian Scientists)
  2. some health issues can preclude vaccinations (e.g., ongoing cancer treatment, organ transplants) but also merit privacy in the workplace so individuals can choose/not choose to disclose their own diagnoses
  3. leadership does not feel like fighting with team members because it takes up time and energy (one reason comparatively few facilities outright require flu vaccines but instead count on professionalism and nudges)
  4. sadly, politics. Political leaders can influence facility-level funding to some degree by, for example, affecting reimbursement rates, infrastructure investment, and local grants.
To your point about risk perceptions of medical staff and that affecting choices: while I am certain that some healthcare professionals view this vaccine as risky (we've seen some loud ones on the news), those people are extreme outliers and, well, I'm not sure what else to call besides poorly informed (though human decision-making is not a rational process, as information has no power, really, over emotions).

The thing I would love for you to take away is that this is not an experimental vaccine. That is a scientifically incorrect way of referring to the COVID vaccine. It is under emergency use exemption, yes, because historical treatment development normally takes years as organizations manage the financial risks; for the COVID vaccines, money was largely a non-issue because of public-sector investment and clear so the process changed in terms of time but absolutely not in terms of rigor.

Also--most importantly--there is more data around COVID vaccines than almost every drug any of us have ever taken, and it's not even close. The effort, oversight, volume of testing, and scrutiny of these vaccines are unlike anything humans have known, including the different valve-related pills we take daily. More is known about COVID treatments and their impacts than almost everything in a modern pharmacy.

To your next point, there are not cardiac-related side effects of these treatments in the way that is being publicly discussed and certainly not in the way your message frames it. The fact we're discussing this is an example of how much scrutiny these treatments are under (which is great: we ought to question and learn and move judiciously on everything to do with our bodies).

As of a few weeks ago, just more than 1,200 heart inflammation cases were documented (400 in young people with zero deaths in the CDC database) after vaccination (out of 300,000,000+ doses for an incidence of .00039%; also, COVID-19 has a heart inflammation rate in young people of 1-3%) <Should rare cases of heart inflammation put your COVID-19 vaccine plans on hold?><COVID-19 Vaccination>

Lastly, I'll add a few things of relevance:
  • a COVID diagnosis is not a 'non-event,' as you call it, even in people without symptoms because we don't know the long-term implications of a diagnosis or the full timelines (never mind social implications on neighbors and loved ones and so on who are more vulnerable). We are seeing late-presenting, multi-organ effects, including some that aren't observed until another medical issue pops up, and the heart may be really affected in some people: Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From COVID-19
  • conversely, the mRNA vaccines are out of bodies within days. mRNA is really fragile, does its job, and then goes away so we know there aren't likely to be late-presenting effects from the treatment<Shibboleth Authentication Request>.
  • lastly, everything to do with the COVID vaccines has been tested in other contexts for decades. We know the components are safe; the only difference is the application here
Per your opening request, I am doing my best to explain without name-calling, judgment, or hostility. I hope you can accept it as such.
 
spartangator said:
Hi @QuincyRunner, I'd love to help here if you're really interested in answers, as your opening comments lead me to believe.

On your first question about hospitals, there are a number of reasons that medical institutions do not mandate vaccines (including my own), COVID and otherwise (but typically seek to use persuasion). The reasons for this include:
  1. expecting some employees in a diverse workforce to have religious objections (e.g., Christian Scientists)
  2. some health issues can preclude vaccinations (e.g., ongoing cancer treatment, organ transplants) but also merit privacy in the workplace so individuals can choose/not choose to disclose their own diagnoses
  3. leadership does not feel like fighting with team members because it takes up time and energy (one reason comparatively few facilities outright require flu vaccines but instead count on professionalism and nudges)
  4. sadly, politics. Political leaders can influence facility-level funding to some degree by, for example, affecting reimbursement rates, infrastructure investment, and local grants.
To your point about risk perceptions of medical staff and that affecting choices: while I am certain that some healthcare professionals view this vaccine as risky (we've seen some loud ones on the news), those people are extreme outliers and, well, I'm not sure what else to call besides poorly informed (though human decision-making is not a rational process, as information has no power, really, over emotions).

The thing I would love for you to take away is that this is not an experimental vaccine. That is a scientifically incorrect way of referring to the COVID vaccine. It is under emergency use exemption, yes, because historical treatment development normally takes years as organizations manage the financial risks; for the COVID vaccines, money was largely a non-issue because of public-sector investment and clear so the process changed in terms of time but absolutely not in terms of rigor.

Also--most importantly--there is more data around COVID vaccines than almost every drug any of us have ever taken, and it's not even close. The effort, oversight, volume of testing, and scrutiny of these vaccines are unlike anything humans have known, including the different valve-related pills we take daily. More is known about COVID treatments and their impacts than almost everything in a modern pharmacy.

To your next point, there are not cardiac-related side effects of these treatments in the way that is being publicly discussed and certainly not in the way your message frames it. The fact we're discussing this is an example of how much scrutiny these treatments are under (which is great: we ought to question and learn and move judiciously on everything to do with our bodies).

As of a few weeks ago, just more than 1,200 heart inflammation cases were documented (400 in young people with zero deaths in the CDC database) after vaccination (out of 300,000,000+ doses for an incidence of .00039%; also, COVID-19 has a heart inflammation rate in young people of 1-3%) <Should rare cases of heart inflammation put your COVID-19 vaccine plans on hold?><COVID-19 Vaccination>

Lastly, I'll add a few things of relevance:
  • a COVID diagnosis is not a 'non-event,' as you call it, even in people without symptoms because we don't know the long-term implications of a diagnosis or the full timelines (never mind social implications on neighbors and loved ones and so on who are more vulnerable). We are seeing late-presenting, multi-organ effects, including some that aren't observed until another medical issue pops up, and the heart may be really affected in some people: Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From COVID-19
  • conversely, the mRNA vaccines are out of bodies within days. mRNA is really fragile, does its job, and then goes away so we know there aren't likely to be late-presenting effects from the treatment<Shibboleth Authentication Request>.
  • lastly, everything to do with the COVID vaccines has been tested in other contexts for decades. We know the components are safe; the only difference is the application here
Per your opening request, I am doing my best to explain without name-calling, judgment, or hostility. I hope you can accept it as such.
Click to expand...

This is an excellent response! I truly hope it does not fall on deaf ears.
 
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QuincyRunner said:
At the risk of being called names by the righteous closed-minded on this site, I would like someone to explain to me that if getting the COVID vaccine is necessary to protect the vulnerable populations in our midst, why is it that the largest hospitals in Tallahassee (and probably many other hospitals) do not require its doctors and nurses to get vaccinated even though they have direct contact with the affirmed and elderly? Could it be that there are many healthcare professionals who believe that getting a vaccine that is still being tested and not fully approved by the FDA is potentially a greater risk to themselves than actually getting COVID-19, which for many people is a non-event that only strengthens the immune system and confers greater resistance to this virus. And no, I am not an antivaxxer except when it comes to experimental vaccines. Given the known cardiac-related side effects of this one I am somewhat surprised that so many of my fellow heart valve patients have been so quick to jump on the band wagon.
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Depending on where you live they can't. My buddy is on a local board and they were trying to insist all the cops get vaccinated but legally they couldn't.

Besides not forcing employees to do so doesn't mean the institution doesn't believe in the vaccine.
Which knows cardiac related side effects,? How many deaths from those side effects?
 
QuincyRunner said:
At the risk of being called names by the righteous closed-minded on this site, I would like someone to explain to me that if getting the COVID vaccine is necessary to protect the vulnerable populations in our midst, why is it that the largest hospitals in Tallahassee (and probably many other hospitals) do not require its doctors and nurses to get vaccinated even though they have direct contact with the affirmed and elderly? Could it be that there are many healthcare professionals who believe that getting a vaccine that is still being tested and not fully approved by the FDA is potentially a greater risk to themselves than actually getting COVID-19, which for many people is a non-event that only strengthens the immune system and confers greater resistance to this virus. And no, I am not an antivaxxer except when it comes to experimental vaccines. Given the known cardiac-related side effects of this one I am somewhat surprised that so many of my fellow heart valve patients have been so quick to jump on the band wagon.
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Plus it's in Florida, case closed
 
Chuck C said:
I truly hope it does not fall on deaf ears.
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What @spartangator wrote is indeed a detailed and accurate post, however I don't believe you will convince the "unconvincable" nor indeed should you attempt to. I believe that things should run as they should do
1626743530565.png


or we are standing in the way of personal freedom, and natural processes.
 
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