Covid Vaccines

Help Support ValveReplacement.org:

Status
Not open for further replies.

slipkid

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
308
Location
Schwenksville, PA, USA
....It is clear to me, and should be to everyone, that there remains open, unanswered questions surrounding the efficacy and safety of the Covid-19 vaccines and calling them experimental at this stage of the process seems fitting to me. In a sense, those of you who have taken the vaccine are unwittingly participating in large scale trials.
I thank you.
True, but at least we did get some clinical trials done, the vaccine(s) have been proven to be effective and relatively safe at least for most, and the way I explained my decision to get the vaccine to others who were hesitant was that I would rather risk the dangers of the vaccine than the dangers of covid itself.

And as Lynn said above, with covid raging out of control and basically destroying our entire way of life (in addition to killing many people) we just don't have the luxury to wait for a full phase 3 clinical trial of 5+ years to determine the full range of adverse effects.

However I do support & believe it is a matter of personal choice. If people don't want to get it then although I think they should it is their decision to make and not for me to pass judgement on them. However when misinformation is being spread to persuade others to NOT get vaccinated I do think that needs to stop since some people actually believe some of the nonsense that is being spread...
 

Chuck C

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2020
Messages
1,024
Hi QuincyRunner,

I wanted to address your comment about health care professionals below.

Could it be that there are many healthcare professionals who believe that getting a vaccine that is still being tested and not fully approved by the FDA is potentially a greater risk to themselves than actually getting COVID-19,
The AMA did a survey which found that 96% of doctors had received the vaccine. And of the 4% who had not yet received it, about half of them plan to get it. While the nursing staff and non medically trained hospital staff members have far lower compliance rates, the staff with the highest level of medical training- the physicians, had very high vaccine compliance.

 

Keithl

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Messages
484
K then, i pose this QUESTION to you, seems no one else seems to know.
Has this CHINA VIRUS been isolated yet, are there any that are still trying to even ISOLATE it?
My sources indicate that it has not, are you able to show me where it has been isolated? [ALSO inform all here why that is a question that needs answers before anything else is even debated, or discussed. if it hasnt been, then there is no Virus to even have one word about, right VITDOC?]
What do you mean "isolated"? Do you mean where it came from? We will never know with 100% certainty where it originated, but we can comes up with some ideas. It was a mistake to write off a lab leak early on, but I do suppose people wanted to focus on the virus not the blame game in the beginning. I do believe that China was given a pass for not reporting as soon as they know something, but I could go off on an entire rant on how we are responsible for creating the China that exists today and we feed that machine every day with our purchases.
 

Keithl

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Messages
484
OH? is that so? it is a fact that EXPERTS have made this claim, so you are one of those EXPERTS that disclaim this point, and you will not even say ONE WORD stating what you base your statement upon?
WOW, now I ask, for the last time, anyone with an open mind, like mine, is this even possible, an EXPERT that says what they say is right, and will not even come close to defending it!!! MICHAEL do you even have a 12th grade education? I am asking for a friend!
"The China Virus has never been ISOLATED!" and that is a fact!
Are there any EXPERTS that will even make the attempt to defend against this point, the CHINA VIRUS has never been ISOLATED! I looked and have never seen nor heard of any! And I am not going to argue this point with anyone that just wants to argue, and with no basis for their side! So if you want to degrade me, go ahead, I can take it. If you want to lower your self and not even attempt to come up to my level, then that is also fine with me, stay down in the dirt and mud where hogs and farm animals love to live and play!
Most viruses are never "isolated" as to exactly where they came form, they used to be identified by the region or the world they were detected and likely started in, but rarely can we isolate to patient zero.
 

Keithl

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Messages
484
At the risk of being called names by the righteous closed-minded on this site, I would like someone to explain to me that if getting the COVID vaccine is necessary to protect the vulnerable populations in our midst, why is it that the largest hospitals in Tallahassee (and probably many other hospitals) do not require its doctors and nurses to get vaccinated even though they have direct contact with the affirmed and elderly? Could it be that there are many healthcare professionals who believe that getting a vaccine that is still being tested and not fully approved by the FDA is potentially a greater risk to themselves than actually getting COVID-19, which for many people is a non-event that only strengthens the immune system and confers greater resistance to this virus. And no, I am not an antivaxxer except when it comes to experimental vaccines. Given the known cardiac-related side effects of this one I am somewhat surprised that so many of my fellow heart valve patients have been so quick to jump on the band wagon.
While I do not like businesses or at least hospitals not mandating their employees get vaccinated we still have civil liberties and freedoms to protect in this country. I do think at some point just like measles and chickenpox most schools will require Covid vaccines once all ages are approved. EVERY medicine and vaccine has potential side effects on some people, no way around that, but we have over 160M people vaccinated, and while never good to see anyone have a bad side effect they have been minimal considering the number of people that have had the shot(s). The is a higher chance of you dying form Covid than the vaccine, so in the words of my friend Dirty Harry :

tenor.gif
 

cldlhd

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
1,669
Location
Levittown ,Pa 19054
Spartangator - as promised, here is my response to your response from my first post. As you will remember, the primary reason for my initial foray into this controversial subject was to wonder aloud how it could be that those running many of our healthcare systems were not mandating the Covid-19 vaccine for its employees, and further, how it could be that so many of our medical professionals were hesitant to get the vaccine. To the first point, while I thank you for your considered response, the four possible explanations provided, while possibly true, do not fully resolve the matter for me. How, in the face of a pandemic, could such shallow and easily overcome personnel matters be more important than the lives of hospitalized patients, most of whom are compromised by one comorbidity or another? Whatever happened to the Hippocratic Oath?
This only makes sense to me if, in contrast with what we hear on the nightly news, the Covid-19 vaccine is either not as effective or not as safe, or both, as we are led to believe. This goes to the second point of my post, with which your explanation also leaves me wanting. Simply opinionating that healthcare professionals who view the vaccine as risky are extreme outliers and that they are poorly informed is not a convincing argument. Had you ended your response at that point there really would have been nothing for me to respond to and the conflicting in my own mind over the disconnects and double standards would continue just as they do now.
However, since you took issue with my use of the work "experimental" in describing the Covid-19 vaccine, I was inclined to continue my research nd herewith are some of my results in the form of a response which I hope you will find satisfactory.
You support your assertion that Covid-19's Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is not experimental because it has undergone the same amount of rigor as a fully authorized vaccine, and that more is known about Covid treatments and their impacts than almost anything else in modern pharmacy. I concede the fact that the EUA process is rigorous in nature. The problem is that it is a process that is far from complete, as it is when a fully authorized vaccine enters the market. Only Phase 1 and Phase 2 trials are required to be completed before a drug receives EUA status from the FDA. Phase 3 trials, the longest and most complex, require a 2-year period in which participants are followed for serious or clinically significant adverse events. These evaluations of the Covid-19 vaccine are ongoing and only interim results are being obtained by the FDA, which explains why we continue to hear about newly discovered side effects up to and including death. Hence, just to continue EUA status a drug maker is required to perform ongoing risk-benefit determinations. It should be noted that the FDA regularly removes EUA status from drugs/vaccines that fail to pass the established risk-benefit threshold. It should also be noted that all of the information in this paragraph comes directly from the FDA's website so please do not accuse me of spreading disinformation.
The British Medical Journal (BMJ) in concert with the British Medical Association, which by the way is also not known for disseminating disinformation, just last month published the following eye-opening snippets: "The Covid-19 vaccines in widespread use have EUA and not actual approval, a crucial regulatory distinction that reflects major differences in the level of regulatory scrutiny and certainly about the risk-benefit balance." According to the BMJ, Phase 3 trials are not simply efficacy studies, but also necessary and important safety studies. Consequently, the BMJ has called on the FDA "to require a more thorough assessment of spike proteins produced by the body following vaccination, including studies on their full bio distribution, pharmacokinetics, and tissue-specific toxicities." The BMJ also advises the FDA to demand that vaccine manufacturers complete proper bio distribution studies that would be expected of any new drug in addition to studies to better understand the implications of mRNA translation in distant tissue. Finally, the BMJ requests that the FDA obtain necessary studies in specific population groups including those previously infected with SARS-CoV-2, pediatric subjects, and those with immunological or other underlying medical complexities (heart valve patients perhaps?). In other words, studies in specific populations have either not been completed or not even conducted in the first place.j
It is clear to me, and should be to everyone, that there remains open, unanswered questions surrounding the efficacy and safety of the Covid-19 vaccines and calling them experimental at this stage of the process seems fitting to me. In a sense, those of you who have taken the vaccine are unwittingly participating in large scale trials.
I thank you.
I'll give you this That response was n't conspiracy theory crazy like the other anti vaccine poster and a certain amount of skepticism is healthy but clearly you come off as one of those people who don't believe "nightly News" , the mainstream media, or likely the government. So my question is if the vaccine gets full FDA approval will you then lose your skepticism of it and take it?
As for the medical professionals in a lot of cases, as Chuck C noted, the ones who have to deal with patients directly are often forced to take it. They're not negligible personnel issues, a friend of mine was advised by a township solicitor to not try to force the Police department to be vaccinated because of legal repercussions. Most citizens do not have a choice whether or not to interact with the police. Companies don't like to be sued and they like to keep good employees, especially these days. Fwiw My wife works at a doctor's office that is in a hospital in New Jersey and when the vaccine became available every single doctor in the practice got it as soon as possible and pretty much every single nurse. Now my wife isn't a doctor so I'm not getting high and mighty but she said the ones who didn't take the vaccine invariably were younger lower-level employees doing clerical work. So the medically trained personnel were not the ones at the hospital refusing the vaccine. Also hospitals have thousands of people that also have their own personal political or conspiratorial views. Again not to bash Florida but you mentioned a hospital in Tallahassee. I'm sure politics in the state have something to do with it as well. Considering Governor DeSantis in an example of government overreach telling private industry what to do ( quite surprising for an anti-government Republican BTW, Well maybe not) told the cruise ship industry that if they are using Florida docks, which they use quite a lot, they could not require all passengers to be vaccinated. Which is amazing considering they are private businesses and nobody forces you to get on a cruise ship. It is not a necessity so for the government to tell them they cannot do this is way overreaching.
Sure keep studying it That's fine But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be authorized or used. I don't agree with you that the efficacy is an open question. According to everything I've read and heard approximately 99% of people in the United States in an ICU right now with covid-19 are unvaccinated. With the number of people we have vaccinated in this country, I believe 160 million have gotten at least a shot?, That seems to be pretty convincing evidence. Unless you don't believe that because you don't trust the source and if that's the case there's not much to say.
 
Last edited:

cldlhd

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
1,669
Location
Levittown ,Pa 19054
True, but at least we did get some clinical trials done, the vaccine(s) have been proven to be effective and relatively safe at least for most, and the way I explained my decision to get the vaccine to others who were hesitant was that I would rather risk the dangers of the vaccine than the dangers of covid itself.

And as Lynn said above, with covid raging out of control and basically destroying our entire way of life (in addition to killing many people) we just don't have the luxury to wait for a full phase 3 clinical trial of 5+ years to determine the full range of adverse effects.

However I do support & believe it is a matter of personal choice. If people don't want to get it then although I think they should it is their decision to make and not for me to pass judgement on them. However when misinformation is being spread to persuade others to NOT get vaccinated I do think that needs to stop since some people actually believe some of the nonsense that is being spread...
I get it but at what point does their personal choice limit what they can do? I think it would be great if more private businesses only allowed in vaccinated people at least for the time being. If the unvaccinated couldn't go into a restaurant unmasked at all, a concert, a sporting event etc maybe that would get it done. Also when it comes to the public health personal choice can go to the wayside. As an example posted earlier children are required to get certain vaccines before they can go to a public school. I don't have the personal choice to drive 120 mph down the road because I'm putting others health at risk. I have to wear clothes out in public whether I like it or not...😉
 

Keithl

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Messages
484
I get it but at what point does their personal choice limit what they can do? I think it would be great if more private businesses only allowed in vaccinated people at least for the time being. If the unvaccinated couldn't go into a restaurant unmasked at all, a concert, a sporting event etc maybe that would get it done. Also when it comes to the public health personal choice can go to the wayside. As an example posted earlier children are required to get certain vaccines before they can go to a public school. I don't have the personal choice to drive 120 mph down the road because I'm putting others health at risk. I have to wear clothes out in public whether I like it or not...😉

Agreed! I think every business has the right to do what they need to to protect their employees and customers and wish more would be more assertive. They are too scared of losing customers or lawsuits. I also think it is ironic that the police (protect and serve) are not mandating vaccines unless there is a valid medical reason. If a police officer pulls me over and I get Covid from the interaction (extreme example, just trying to make a point) they have endangered me.

The cruise industry should have bluffed FL and said they were moving to ports in other states. Of all places to need people to be vaccinated I don't understand the reluctance. Do these people not remember all the people stranded on boats last years becasue no one wanted them to dock with infected people.

Unfortunately we do NOT learn from history, go research the Spanish Flu of 1918-19 and the anti-mask leagues and so on. At least one could argue they were less informed back then as science was not as good as it is today.

It truly amazes me how people listen to other people without any validation of fact, I am sure there are some interesting human psychology studies to explain some of it. I am an information sponge and what to hear as much about things as I can, while others trust a person or web site and treat it as the sole source of truth.
 

cldlhd

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
1,669
Location
Levittown ,Pa 19054
Agreed! I think every business has the right to do what they need to to protect their employees and customers and wish more would be more assertive. They are too scared of losing customers or lawsuits. I also think it is ironic that the police (protect and serve) are not mandating vaccines unless there is a valid medical reason. If a police officer pulls me over and I get Covid from the interaction (extreme example, just trying to make a point) they have endangered me.

The cruise industry should have bluffed FL and said they were moving to ports in other states. Of all places to need people to be vaccinated I don't understand the reluctance. Do these people not remember all the people stranded on boats last years becasue no one wanted them to dock with infected people.

Unfortunately we do NOT learn from history, go research the Spanish Flu of 1918-19 and the anti-mask leagues and so on. At least one could argue they were less informed back then as science was not as good as it is today.

It truly amazes me how people listen to other people without any validation of fact, I am sure there are some interesting human psychology studies to explain some of it. I am an information sponge and what to hear as much about things as I can, while others trust a person or web site and treat it as the sole source of truth.
Well regarding the cruise ships I do believe that once you're on the ship a lot of them are limiting the good bit of their activities and events to people who are fully vaccinated only. I don't know I've only been on one cruise and it was all right but not my favorite idea of a vacation. I mean the Florida thing was pure politics assuming the orange guy doesn't come back DeSantis is running in 2024. Being old enough to remember before 5 years ago it does seem odd to me that it's good Republican politics for the government to tell private businesses what to do in regards to something like this but times are different.....
 

Lynn

VR.org Supporter
VR.org Supporter
Joined
Mar 24, 2021
Messages
63
Location
British Columbia

For anyone that wants to understand the “isolated” conspiracy theory better, here is a link to a Fact Checking web site that explains the term from a pathogen perspective and why the conspiracy is a bit well...loonie.
 

Chuck C

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2020
Messages
1,024
It truly amazes me how people listen to other people without any validation of fact, I am sure there are some interesting human psychology studies to explain some of it.
The education system needs to do a better job of teaching critical thinking skills. When basic critical thinking skills are absent, mix it with a big dose of confirmation bias and then toss in social media algorithms which keep feeding the bias with like minded videos and posts, the combination creates the unfortunate situation that we now face, with a significant percentage of the population believing misinformation which they should be viewing with a skeptical eye.
 

slipkid

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
308
Location
Schwenksville, PA, USA
While I do not like businesses or at least hospitals not mandating their employees get vaccinated we still have civil liberties and freedoms to protect in this country. I do think at some point just like measles and chickenpox most schools will require Covid vaccines once all ages are approved. EVERY medicine and vaccine has potential side effects on some people, no way around that, but we have over 160M people vaccinated, and while never good to see anyone have a bad side effect they have been minimal considering the number of people that have had the shot(s). The is a higher chance of you dying form Covid than the vaccine, so in the words of my friend Dirty Harry :

View attachment 887979
Depends on whether he fired 6 shots or only 5...but...I GOTS TO KNOW!
 

rich01

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
Messages
419
Location
Virginia US
Well, you're going to say that the experts don't really know, or they are purposefully lying to us, part of some insidious scheme, but here you go:

" vaccinated people who have contracted the coronavirus have much lower viral loads than unvaccinated people. "

" experts say that while not impossible, COVID-19 transmission by fully vaccinated people is unlikely. "

“The more virus you have, the better chance you have of spreading it,” Patterson told Healthline. “From what we know of wild COVID (the non-variant form of the novel coronavirus), people who are vaccinated are not carrying very much viral load, so the probability of them being infectious is very low.”


And, that is on top of the fact that the vaccine is 90%+ effective, and there are relatively few breakthrough cases, even with the variants. So, no, not just as likely to get the virus from someone who is vaccinated as someone who is unvaccinated. That is conspiracy BS.
The Texas Democrats who fled to DC were all vaccinated, yet several got Covid-19 and spread it to other people. You must be looking at old information, about 50% of new delta cases in Israel are breakthrough cases. I believe I just read about 90% of Britain's population has Covid-19 antibodies, yet they have over 40k new cases a day.
 

Michael O

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2021
Messages
90
It's important to understand that as a larger and larger proportion of the population is vaccinated, a larger percentage of total cases will come from breakthrough cases. This does not mean that the vaccine is not preventing cases or lessening the effects. The vast majority of deaths and severe cases are from the unvaccinated population.
 

Chuck C

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2020
Messages
1,024
The Texas Democrats who fled to DC were all vaccinated, yet several got Covid-19 and spread it to other people. You must be looking at old information, about 50% of new delta cases in Israel are breakthrough cases. I believe I just read about 90% of Britain's population has Covid-19 antibodies, yet they have over 40k new cases a day.
You're confusing being "unlikely to spread" vs zero chance of spreading. With about 160 million people in the US fully vaccinated, there will be some breakthrough cases. And, there will be some transmission from the vaccinated.

You are ignoring the statistics. In the month of May, hospitalizations from breakthrough cases among the vaccinated accounted for only 1.1% of all cases. And, deaths for those vaccinated accounted for only .8% of all deaths. Put another way, 98.9% of all hospitalizations for Covid were among the unvaccinated and 99.2% of all deaths from Covid were among the unvaccinated. What is it about these numbers do you not understand.

An anecdotal case from Texas in which an unscientific extrapolation is made does not trump the statistics.

 

cldlhd

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
1,669
Location
Levittown ,Pa 19054
The Texas Democrats who fled to DC were all vaccinated, yet several got Covid-19 and spread it to other people. You must be looking at old information, about 50% of new delta cases in Israel are breakthrough cases. I believe I just read about 90% of Britain's population has Covid-19 antibodies, yet they have over 40k new cases a day.
I hate to trouble you with factual information but the fact that some of them tested positive for covid isn't proof that the vaccine doesn't work. In other words I don't know what cave you live in but I have heard over and over again that you can still catch covid being vaccinated just prevents you , at a 90 some percent rate, from getting sick enough to go into the hospital or die. So in other words if you could get vaccinated, catch covid-19, and be sick with what would amount to a mild cold or catch it unvaccinated and end up in an ICU or dead these are not similar outcomes.
Second of all how do you know they spread it to others?
Finally the Delta variant is clearly more contagious which is all the more reason to get vaccinated
 

Michael O

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2021
Messages
90
With respect, Chuck, I think that the low percentage of breakthrough case counts will be less true as Delta spreads. As a larger and larger proportion of the population is vaccinated, a larger percentage of total cases will come from breakthrough cases. There's no question, however that severity is lessened w/ the vaccine.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top