coumadin , plaque, vit. k2, Cyclodextrin, stopping plaque

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pellicle

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Hi
Nocturne;n882661 said:
Already did that before, in an other discussion, and there are plenty of other sources as well. I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole with you again. The information is out there if you do a little digging.
except you didn't link to the "other discussion" and searching on your posts on this matter is ... well fraught. You may have noticed that I usually do the reader the courtesy of furnishing links to either data sources or other discussions here when I make assertions ...

Also I've done my own digging (as you know) and nothing is anything more than "there may exist a connection" or "a conjectured connection"

as to me having an emotional investment in this I disagree. I'd be happy to be dead tomorrow if it turns out that way ... having watched my mother and father linger through slow deaths by dementure and cancer I can't say I'm up for that myself.

I've had a good life to this point (and continue to) and already had reports that my calcification is low (which I attribute to my lifestyle and diet choices as well as genes).

Its a mistake to assume that just because I'm on warfarin means I'm paranoid about it.
 
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Agian

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Noc, you seem to make assumptions about what people might be thinking or feeling, when making statements.
You seem to assume I would deny reality about Warfarin, because I'm on it.

The calcium content of a plaque shouldn't increase just because it 'matures', just its density.
 

Nocturne

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Agian;n882664 said:
Noc, you seem to make assumptions about what people might be thinking or feeling, when making statements.
You seem to assume I would deny reality about Warfarin, because I'm on it.
I would say that you seem to be assuming that I do that.

Agian;n882664 said:
The calcium content of a plaque shouldn't increase just because it 'matures', just its density.
Exactly.
 

tom in MO

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Nocturne;n882631 said:
sfc1981 I actually know a fair amount about this. You are correct, there is a pretty good amount of evidence that Coumadin increases the rate of calcification or "plaque" formation in the coronary arteries and elsewhere. However for most people this is probably not a huge concern...
Please supply references for this information. I have never been told or read that this is a risk with warfarin.
 

Nocturne

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pellicle;n882662 said:
as to me having an emotional investment in this I disagree. I'd be happy to be dead tomorrow if it turns out that way ... having watched my mother and father linger through slow deaths by dementure and cancer I can't say I'm up for that myself.
If this is your reasoning for not having an emotional investment in this, it is flawed. Death by heart failure can be quite lingering and slow, and of course a stroke (ultimately caused by the same process that leads to high CAC) could just leave you WISHING you were dead.

pellicle;n882662 said:
I've had a good life to this point (and continue to) and already had reports that my calcification is low (which I attribute to my lifestyle and diet choices as well as genes).
How lucky for you. Congratulations.

pellicle;n882662 said:
Its a mistake to assume that just because I'm on warfarin means I'm paranoid about it.
Perhaps. You seem to be protesting the assumption rather a lot, though, for someone of whom it is not true.

EDIT: Actually - paranoid? No. That is an assumption of yours -- that I think you are "paranoid" about it. I wouldn't say that. But I do think you have an emotional investment.
 

DDT77

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I would believe if there is any sort of this connection, On-X would also be marketing low INR (desired) requirement of their products, due to reduced coumadin requirements. Perhaps at least they are researching the topic...
 

Nocturne

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DDT77;n882671 said:
I would believe if there is any sort of this connection, On-X would also be marketing low INR (desired) requirement of their products, due to reduced coumadin requirements. Perhaps at least they are researching the topic...
Aren't they, though? I think every advertisement I have seen for the new On-X valve has mentioned the lower INR requirement.
 

Nocturne

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Nocturne;n882672 said:
Aren't they, though? I think every advertisement I have seen for the new On-X valve has mentioned the lower INR requirement.
I'm not really interested in going around and around with Pellicle on this one again. There will always be a hair to split, a minor phrasing to attach major importance to. Run a Google search on "Warfarin calcium progression" or "Warfarin CAC progression" or some such. You'll find a lot to read on the matter.

I do know that the "Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute" is trying to see if Rivaroxiban pushes the progression of vascular calcification less than Warfarin. There's probably a reason that they are looking into it:

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02376010

"Warfarin is a vitamin K antagonist that has been shown in non-randomized trials to increase vascular calcification. Increased vascular calcification has been tied to increased cardiovascular events (CVE)"

Well well. Here's another one looking at Apixaban vs Warfarin for the same thing. That is a different drug, right?

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02090075

Ah, and look who is involved with both! Matthew Budoff, who seems to know more about CAC than anyone else. Good man.


Hell, I'll throw a few other fish out for those of you who are really too lazy to use a search engine:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/cardiology/arrhythmias/27768

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5684169/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4859382/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22520397

http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/early/2014/10/16/ATVBAHA.114.304392


And on and on. Now Pellicle will find some nit to pick that "proves" Warfarin isn't the culprit. <Shrug> I'm not trying to convince him. I'm just trying to offer advice for any other unfortunates who have AVS as a result of high Lp(a) (as opposed to the more commonly known and understood bicuspid valve) who may come this forum for advice.
 

pellicle

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sfc1981

Distill out the ​​​​​​​bottom line...

Nocturne;n882657 said:
... Warfarin use may significantly increase calcification and therefore CAC growth, it probably doesn't do so to the extent that the typical Warfarin user should be all that concerned about it.
...
HOWEVER - if you're a freak of nature, and your CAC score is on the moon (worst 1% for your age)
...
The OP is not, in my opinion, in that position. Very very few people would be .
So even he agrees its not a problem for you (unless your one of those dialysis patients in the abovementioned study)
 

pellicle

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Agian;n882642 said:
...Pellicle dug up some research in Warfarinised rats that showed some increase in calcification. I think it's bloody hilarious that they gave the rats rat poison and they lived long enough to die of heart disease. That's a classic.
It was pure irony wasn't it :)
 

Agian

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From what I understand k1 is a precursor of K2. If someone is really worried they can take a K2 supplement. The myth of dietary restriction for those on warfarin might contribute. I doubt calcium would spontaneously materialise, it would have soft plaque as a precursor.
 

Agian

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Vitamin K epoxide conversion to quinone is blocked by warfarin. However, Vitamin K quinone can be obtained from diet.
Aren't I a clever bastard?
 

Paleowoman

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Agian;n882679 said:
From what I understand k1 is a precursor of K2.
The bacteria in our gut make vitamin K2, but unless we eat our poo, like rabbits do for example, the K2 is lost. So we have to get K2 from food sources. Vitamin K2 is found in animal products, especially organ meats, also fermented products such as certain cheeses, and egg yolks. Vegetarian sources of K2 are Japanese natto which is fermented soy.

Here's one source of info about K2: http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/060113p54.shtml But just google 'food sources vitamin K2' to find many more links.

I take K2 supplementation as K2-MK7 - this is because I have osteoporosis.
 

LondonAndy

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Agian;n882684 said:
Yes, this is a topic dear to me. I have published more than 200 papers and book chapters on rabbit faeces and its relationship to Vitamin K2.
I think I may have read one of them. Was it called Watershit Down? :Smile:
 
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