Anyone NEED a meter?

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pellicle

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First of all sorry for the mistake I made about your nickname in a previous post.
good grief mate, you can misspell my name all you like ... I don't care. It wasn't about that, it was about instructions to make sure I get notified, assuming you wanted to get me notified then that was how.
You can call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner.

I would like to ask to find the standard deviation in a data sheet I use the STDEV function for the entire population of the cell area or other function ?
so what are you trying to achieve? The question is too vague, I don't know what you mean by "the entire population of the cell area".

Generally speaking its best to work with spreadsheets with "entity data" in rows and then work with the StdDev of something in columns. For instance

name​
age​
billy​
12​
sally​
13​
jimmy​
22​
andy​
8​
sue​
19​
average​
14.8​
standard dev​
5.6302753041037​

and the formula of standard dev in the cell is =STDEV(B2:B6)

more specifically my INR data for (a segment of) 2021 is:

3.0​
3.1​
2.3​
2.2​
2.9​
3.2​
2.7​
3.3​
2.2​
3.0​
2.4​

the formula at the bottom of the column is: =STDEV(C4:C55)

is that helpful?
 

ATHENS1964

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
258
Thanks a lot for that answer, I wanted to find the standard deviation of my measurements, I have a target value of 2.5
 

pellicle

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Queensland, OzTrayLeeYa
I wanted to find the standard deviation of my measurements
ok ... so the example should fit for you then ... and your target is not really related to the sd

FWIW I also maintain a count of "over and under" events (just for my curiousity)

average
2.6
6.9375
std dev
0.4
0.3
max​
3.3​
7.5​
min​
1.8​
6.5​
over event​
1​
under event​
1​
inRange %​
96.4​

formula is: =COUNTIF(C4:C55,">"&3.2)

Look up the help file in your spreadsheet (I'm using LibreOffice)
 

ATHENS1964

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
258
ok ... so the example should fit for you then ... and your target is not really related to the sd

FWIW I also maintain a count of "over and under" events (just for my curiousity)

average
2.6
6.9375
std dev
0.4
0.3
max​
3.3​
7.5​
min​
1.8​
6.5​
over event​
1​
under event​
1​
inRange %​
96.4​

formula is: =COUNTIF(C4:C55,">"&3.2)

Look up the help file in your spreadsheet (I'm using LibreOffice)
I have made a data sheet sheet with page apple see the attachment and add statistics ,
has imperfections but I do not rush the basics such as measurement results, averages, inside and outside the target etc I have . any suggestion for improvement accepted.
 

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ATHENS1964

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Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
258
I didn't see dose mentioned there.
It is the next stage so far I have a separate data sheet per week that I have the INR and the dosage but I have not been able to set it as I would like I hope to fix it soon and transfer the dose data from the other file I have predicted the column
. My drug is acetocoumarol. My dose is 1.5 mg per day and if necessary I correct with 0.25 mg, the average life of the drug is 12 hours and the discrepancy is seen the next day.
there are differences with warfarin in the effect of the drug.
 

sharky7

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Mar 18, 2015
Messages
57
Location
miami, fla.
The meter was first advertised as a blood sugar meter.. they didnt have a clue I dont think, bargain lol
WOW, you could be right, they may have very well not have known what they had, you got the deal of the century though, well of modern times in any case. and your gifting it, paying it forward it the key to life, and when ya dont KARMA bites ya in the ass every time, i think. thank you for being you!!! HHO
 

sharky7

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Mar 18, 2015
Messages
57
Location
miami, fla.
This was not the reason for the daily testing. No one was believing that it would correct my INR in the same day. But, giving that it had huge momentum going up, from the amiodarone, then downward momentum from taking vitamin K , it was important to know which direction it was moving, thus the daily testing. For example, INR of 9.7 Thursday. Vitamin k dose Thursday evening. It was important to see if the vitamin K did the job and how well it did the job- so testing about 9am Friday morning. Good news it was about 2.4. Then they actually had me test just 3 hours later, as INR had dropped like a rock from the vitamin K and they wanted to see if INR was still dropping from the vitamin K. I tested at 2.2, which is a sizable move in just 3 hours. So, they used that info to help decide how big of a warfarin dose to take Friday. Tested again on Saturday morning and INR had continued to fall- now down to 1.6. So, this told us that the vitamin K was still pushing it down, despite a decent sized warfarin dose on Friday. Knowing that I was that far under range helped determine the size of the warfarin dose on Saturday and Sunday. We all vary in how effective vitamin K works to drop INR, as well as how quickly we clear warfarin. It would not have been a surprise if my Saturday reading was higher than Friday, given it had been over 36 hours since taking vitamin K and had a good warfarin dose Friday. Had INR shown to be rebounding back, the dosing would have been different than it was when it was discovered to be 1.6, and possibly still on the way down.

And, we do all clear warfarin at different rates, but personally, I see a reaction the next day when I alter my warfarin dose. Given the long half life of warfarin, I am very aware that any dose will affect me for several days, but when I alter my dose in either direction, I see measurable movement in my INR the next day.

I would say it is a bit like giving a boat a push. I can measure how far it went from my push after one minute, but the energy from my push will continue to move the boat for a considerable amount of time after the minute has passed.
I just have to, NO, I need to answer this, and take to task those that either dont know, or think that they know better. I would come here and SAY THAT I ALSO CAN AND HAVE SEEN MY INR CHANGE FROM DOSE CHANGE, AND ON THAT NEXT DAY! been there done that.
WHEN i first started, the info i had gotten was it was about 5-7 days to notice and see any change, but this is not a "for all" fitting item in taking blood thinners, well not for me, and it seems not for you also!!! And I love my SALADs, i also included the machine that i got on EBAY, a tad over $500USD!
I am right now on 4MGs per day, [cept., 2MGs on Tuesday and Thursday] they tried to go lower but once i got my machine, i noticed that they were wrong, they had me on 2MGs for 3 days, and not only 2days. {when this happen, i was a tad under, and seemed to be headed down, so i took an extra 1MG and tested next day and it was within MY range!!! wala, what do ya know. it was like 2.1-2.2 and next day it was 2.5, almost a bullseye.}
I found out that i had for a few days from self testing, I was under 2.0! where am i suppose to be, {2.5-3.5} according to their DATA!
I happen to think they really do not care, THEY are doing it for the $$$$ like CHUCK said and as long as your even close to the numbers, they are fine with that!
Although some over in the VA tend to be somewhat over concerned with those INR numbers, what I mean to say is, if your .5 or so out of range, it really does not matter, but THE VA makes a big deal out of nothing i think. WELL, as long as you dont stay there that many days!
{ALSO CHUCK, i would like to ask you if you have noticed, the INR number it was a tad higher than when they draw blood for a lab to do the test??? [The self test number is like about .3 higher than what the lab reports back.] HAS ANYONE NOTICED this to be true, or what if anything have they noticed?}
 

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Chuck C

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Dec 5, 2020
Messages
1,178
ALSO CHUCK, i would like to ask you if you have noticed, the INR number it was a tad higher than when they draw blood for a lab to do the test???
Hi Sharky7.
Per your question, the last check that I did with the lab I tested with my own Coaguchek xs immediately after my blood draw at Quest. My meter indicated 2.2. When I received my email from Quest the next day I was very pleased to see that they had the exact same result as my meter- INR of 2.2.

Funny story with that. I knew that I was in range and the only reason for the lab was to check the accuracy of my meter against the Quest lab result. My cardiologist ordered the INR, so I was not expecting any communication from the Coumadin Clinic, as I had not been under their care for 4 months. Well, apparently Quest still has them in the system for me and they sent the results to my cardio, but also to the clinic. The clinic, who was not even supposed to get the results, thinks that I am still supposed to be at an INR range of 2.5-3.5, and is unaware that my cardio has lowered my range to 2.0-3.0.
So, the clinic panics, thinking that I am under range, even though being under by .3 is no cause for panic. They tell me to significantly increase my warfarin dose and instruct me that they have called in a prescription for an injectable anti-coagulant, which happens to be very expensive. But, to add screw up upon screw up, they think that my daily dose is still 4mg per day, and, in reality, it is now 6.5mg/day, so they tell me to increase my dose by 50% for two days, and then move to 5mg/day, which makes zero sense, because that is less than I take daily now and of couse I was not even out of range in the first place.

And for all this they wanted to bill me $ 505! For getting a result that was not intended for them and giving guidance that was way off base in multilple ways? It seems that they have retracted the bill, at least that is the appearance.

I did not need convincing, but the above experience has reinforced my view that self monitoring is the way to go. Had I not been paying attention, and just followed their guidance, I would have been injecting another anti-coagulant for no reason and my dosing would have been all screwed up.
 

pellicle

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Messages
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I would come here and SAY THAT I ALSO CAN AND HAVE SEEN MY INR CHANGE FROM DOSE CHANGE, AND ON THAT NEXT DAY! been there done that.
no need for yelling

So, how much did your INR change over what period. What else had occurred (for instance skipped missed a dose, drinking, ...)?

I've seen INR changes but the biggest ones are on discontinuation. If dose remains constant I've not seen more than 0.5 INR points in 24hours.
 

leadville

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Messages
435
Location
Greater Manchester, England
So, how much did your INR change over what period. What else had occurred (for instance skipped missed a dose, drinking, ...)?

I've not seen more than 0.5 INR points in 24hours.

Just to add to pell's list; any Antibiotics, NSAIDS or grapefruit juice ?

also it is worth a mention that cycling from 2mg to 4mg is poor practice.
its a much smoother curve to use a constant daily dose ( near to constant as possible )


The information you were given that a dose change will take 5 to 7 days to show in your INR
is incorrect.
2 to 4 days is a more realistic range , even this is fluid
 

tom in MO

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Jan 17, 2012
Messages
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Location
MO USA
Just to add to pell's list; any Antibiotics, NSAIDS or grapefruit juice ?

also it is worth a mention that cycling from 2mg to 4mg is poor practice.
its a much smoother curve to use a constant daily dose ( near to constant as possible )


The information you were given that a dose change will take 5 to 7 days to show in your INR
is incorrect.
2 to 4 days is a more realistic range , even this is fluid
The time for a dose change to take effect I believe depends upon how long you have been on warfarin. Within the first month or so of surgery, my coumadin clinic would test about 4 days after a dose change to see if the dose change worked. After I had been out awhile, they did it 5-7 days.
 

leadville

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Greater Manchester, England
The time for a dose change to take effect I believe depends upon how long you have been on warfarin. Within the first month or so of surgery, my coumadin clinic would test about 4 days after a dose change to see if the dose change worked. After I had been out awhile, they did it 5-7 days.
Hey Tom hope you're keeping well, just to clarify my point I'm not talking about the protocol of post surgery testing or clinic monitoring.

Sharky said he noticed a change in INR at 24hours.

He has had his valve ~ 6yr if I'm understanding correctly.

So notwithstanding protocol , given the half life of warfarin and the way the VKA cascade works a change will show usually around 2 -4 days in the real world for the majority.
 
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tom in MO

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Hey Tom hope you're keeping well, just to clarify my point I'm not talking about the protocol of post surgery testing or clinic monitoring.

Sharky said he noticed a change in INR at 24hours.

He has had his valve ~ 6yr if I'm understanding correctly.

So notwithstanding protocol , given the half life of warfarin and the way the VKA cascade works a change will show usually around 2 -4 days in the real world for the majority.
Thanks! Hope you are well as well :)
 

Chuck C

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Dec 5, 2020
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1,178
Regarding the original title of the thread, it looks like there are some interesting auctions available on Ebay right now for Coaguchek devices:


Just make sure to do your due diligence on the reputation of the seller:


Here too:

I am editing to add the following, which I noticed. The more expensive listing says:


Tested In Working Condition


The much cheaper $ 49 and the auction one say:


No Back Door

No front blue cover


You can see from the photo what they mean. The battery cover is missing and the blue cover, which protects the strip area in front is missing. I think both of these are easy fixes, so I went ahead and bought one for $ 49 and will test it for accuracy. Not a bad idea to have a back up in the rare event mine stops working (probabably very rare). In such event I will have a back cover and a blue cover for the front from my old one.
 
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tom in MO

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Jan 17, 2012
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MO USA
I wouldn't trust my life to a used meter. Some people are tinkers and open up devices just to see...grandma's dead and doesn't need it anymore...Oh wait I can get $200 on ebay for it, better put it back together...
 

ScribeWithALancet

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2019
Messages
75
ok ... so the example should fit for you then ... and your target is not really related to the sd

FWIW I also maintain a count of "over and under" events (just for my curiousity)

average
2.6
6.9375
std dev
0.4
0.3
max​
3.3​
7.5​
min​
1.8​
6.5​
over event​
1​
under event​
1​
inRange %​
96.4​

formula is: =COUNTIF(C4:C55,">"&3.2)

Look up the help file in your spreadsheet (I'm using LibreOffice)
Pellicle,
Thank you for the LibreOffice Tip on how to count the out of range draws. I will have to add that to my spreadsheet just for the fun of knowing how often I am out of range in a year. Since my range is 2.5 to 3.5, I may count both those over 3.5 and those over 4.0 and those under 2.5 and those under 2 separately as I think about that U shape curve for risk factors that you posted.
Walk in His Peace,
Scribe With a Lancet
 

pellicle

Professional Dingbat
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
9,103
Location
Queensland, OzTrayLeeYa
Thank you for the LibreOffice Tip on how to count the out of range draws. I will have to add that to my spreadsheet just for the fun of knowing
you're totally welcome. I can't say if it'll work in Excel or Google Sheets (for those who use those), but I'm expecting it won't be too different.

the only thing better than the fun of knowing is the joy of doing

1633313491052.png

(wonders to himself who even gets this)
 
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