a discussion about the flaws in research presentation of data

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pellicle

Professional Dingbat, Guru and Merkintologist
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
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Queensland, OzTrayLeeYa
well worth it, especially for the data heads out there (like me ;-)

I also like the point he makes that "data does not stand for itself, it needs to be interpreted." Which is why I always suggest that you read the article or at least skim it looking for their biases or their attempts of cooking outcomes (like the one he gave on chocolate helps you to lose weight)

 
A wonderful book on just this subject is 'Doctoring Data' by Dr Malcolm Kendrick: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctoring-...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1486026130&sr=1-2

Dr Kendrick takes a scalpel to the world of medical research and dissects it for your inspection.
He reveals the tricks that are played to make minute risk look enormous.
How drugs trials can be hyped, the data manipulated, the endless games that are played to scare us into doing what, in many cases, makes the most money.
After reading this book you will know what to believe and what to ignore.
You'll have a much greater understanding of the world of medical research.
A world in crisis.

" It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgement of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine. "
Dr Marcia Angell
 
The cholesterol thing again. Sick, frail people have lower cholesterol. Mine dropped post-op. It's called an acute phase reaction. Low cholesterol is related to illness, not a cause of it. Maybe I should watch the clip again. Oh dear, everyone has something to sell: 'A world in crisis.'
 
Agian;n872848 said:
The cholesterol thing again..'
'Doctoring Data' isn't about cholesterol Aglan, it's about medical research and published papers, how the data is manipulated and so on. Have a look at the chapter headings in the Table of Contents. Ties in nicely with the video clip Pellicle posted above.
 
Dr Kendrick also believes you can treat sepsis with Vitamin C.
He emphasises that you can't rely on the judgement of trusted physicians, despite most of his veracity being based on being a GP. Hence, the irony. 5 quackers from me.
 
Agian;n872850 said:
Dr Kendrick also believes you can treat sepsis with Vitamin C.
With respect Aglan, you're actually doing what a lot of people do which is what Pellicle's video illustrates. You have grabbed the headline of Dr Kendrick's current post on his blog in which he posts a link to a study about vitamin C without having read the details of the post or the study. The study is about treating severe sepsis and septic shock which used intravenous vitamin C along with hydrocortisone and thiamine. The other thing you have done is condemned someone as a quack without any scientific proof ! I could condemn Dean Ormish as a quack but I won't because I am not in a position to do so. None of us are in a position to condemn either Dr Kendrick or Dr Ornish as quacks. We have to read everything they have written and follow up links to research they have used to support whatever their claims are - we have to read that research and see if there are any conflicts of interest or any manipulation of data such as saying association is causation or using relative risk instead of absolute risk, and so on.
 
He is a quack! Here's the scientific evidence: 'plaques are made of cholesterol'. They've looked at them.

He tells us to lower Lipoprotein (a) with Vitamin C, insisting it is just like LDL (see Pauling, i.e nothing original). Doesn't work by the way. I don't see the logic of suggesting this, given he asserts that LDL has little relation to CAD, anyway.

I read scientific literature everyday and have invested in a baloney-meter... BTW, I've had a stent. Reading and understanding are two different things. Pleased to see he has a blog.

Make that 6 quackers.
 
PS just went to his blog: 'Vitamin C an update'. it was probably the hydrocortisone. It's a commonly used corticosteroid and yes it works! But it was the Vitamin C that caught his eye. A small robust study LOL
 
Agian;n872855 said:
Make that 6 quackers.
No, 7 if you add Ornish then.

Anyway, the discussion on this thread is about how a lot of published research is manipulated. Whether you agree or not with the speaker in Pellicle's link or the writer in my link, they are only talking and writing about how data is manipulated in studies, usually to prove the bias of the authors.
 
Go for it. Add Esselstyn to the list, if you want, and Kermit the Frog. It's not a matter of my dad is bigger than your dad. I don't have an emotional investment and I'm certainly not a fan boy.

I saw Statin Nation. They reckon people that have heart disease have lower cholesterol than those that don't. What they don't tell you is that people with heart disease tend to be on prescribed statins, hence the lower cholesterol. They talk about clots causing heart attacks, but they intentionally leave out that the clots attach to lipid plaques with weakened 'caps'. Then there's some blurb about LDL being a carrier of Q10 and how important this and Vitamin E are, which is totally irrelevant to the argument. Yes, LDL is part of a carrier complex. Once it sheds it's goodies, it becomes a remnant free to float around and cause harm. We wouldn't need statins if we lived better. There was one cardiologist, who actually made a comment that contradicted their premises, but 'cardiologist' flashed on the screen, giving the clip some street cred. Sorry to break the news, but this clip was intentionally deceptive, geared to impress those who are easily impressed.

it kind of reminds me of the anti vaccine campaign. Fair enough, don't vaccinate your kids. Then the government turned around and said 'if you don't vaccinate them we'll cut your welfare' Guess what? The big screen TV was worth 'poisoning' the kids with vaccines. If ya can't feed them, don't breed them.

Or the guy who was treating sickness with prayer 'Satan be gone!' He actually had a heart attack in the middle of a healing session. 'Call an ambulance' he said. LMAO
 
Going off topic again ! But I couldn't let this assertion rest so had to do some further reading to see where you got this Aglan:
Agian;n872855 said:
He is a quack! .....He tells us to lower Lipoprotein (a) with Vitamin C

Actaully he doesn't, if you read the rest of the blog post of his about vitamin C and Lp(a) he concludes:

With regard to the critical question, does vitamin C reduce the risk of CVD [with or without lowering Lp(a)]. I would say, case currently unproven. This does not mean that it does not (in fact I believe that it probably does). What I mean by ‘case currently unproven’ is that no-one has done a large scale interventional study using vitamin C to find out if it really reduces CVD.
And:
However, there is one way to definitely reduce Lp(a) levels, and that is to take l-carnitine
He quotes from a study and says further:
Does this then result in a reduction in CVD risk? The answer is that I do not know, for sure. A meta-analysis of L-carnitine supplementation has been done. This consisted of five trials on three thousand people. L-carnitine supplementation did show some benefit – which did not reach statistical significance, but came very, very close
.

He concludes:
What would I now recommend? If you have a high Lp(a) level take lots of vitamin C and l-carnitine and see if your Lp(a) level falls. If it does, keep taking lots of vitamin C and l-carnitine for the rest of your life. If it does not fall? Not sure.

As for the rest of us? Well I have no idea how much vitamin C anyone should take, or how much l-carnitine is required. There is literally no area of medicine that is less clear than our true vitamin requirements.

I can see no harm coming to people from taking lots of vitamin C or lots of l-carnitine. So, supplement away. You will probably reduce your risk of dying from CVD.


https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2017/01/16/what-causes-heart-disease-part-xxiv/
 
It's exactly what he says. 'What I would recommend is take lots of Vitamin C and L-Carnitine... And if it falls take it for the rest of your life!!' That's pretty assertive advice for something that he says the jury is still out for. He is a doctor after all.

Safety of long-term Carnitine intake? Unknown, possibly harmful... Jury is out lol. Carnitine alters GIT microbiota and may actually increase CAD risk.

Things that lower Lipoprotein (a): Ezetimibe, Evolocumab, niacin, Flaxseed, Almonds, Omega 3 FAs, DHEA. But of course he would've known that, being so up-to-date and all.

vitamin C and Carnitine don't work, but he hedges his bets carefully. His patients must like him.
 
Agian;n872862 said:
It's exactly what he says. 'What I would recommend is take lots of Vitamin C and L-Carnitine... And if it falls take it for the rest of your life!!' .
Aglan - do you eyes need testing ? He actually says: What would I now recommend? If you have a high Lp(a) level take lots of vitamin C and l-carnitine and see if your Lp(a) level falls. If it does, keep taking lots of vitamin C and l-carnitine for the rest of your life. If it does not fall? Not sure. and As for the rest of us? Well I have no idea how much vitamin C anyone should take, or how much l-carnitine is required. There is literally no area of medicine that is less clear than our true vitamin requirements.

Absolutley nowhere does Kendrick say that vitamin C and l-carnitine are the definitive cure for heart disease caused by Lp(a). He has dozens of blog posts there about the hypothetical causes of heart disease and presents evidence for lots of different causes and lots of different things which help. No one knows the true causes of heart disease or the cures - it is an ongoing topic of research which Kendrick reports.
 
'... presents evidence for lots of different causes', and then you say 'No one knows the true causes of heart disease' So... it's all guess work (hypothetical even) according to your informed self and this god-amongst-men. So, why does he recommend taking Carnitine and Vitamin C forever? (Yes, I do know he was only referring to those with high Lipoprotein (a))

[Disclaimer: High Vitamin C intake can cause kidney stones, so please don't try this at home without adult supervision.]

Don't get mad, get logical.

i'll upload pictures of coronary plaques and you'll be able to see it with your own perfect eyes... Polystyrene.
 

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